need help getting Brownie started with Tug

[BrownieNJoyce]

Brownie shies completely away from grabbing a toy or doggy rope. He seems to be predatory only for food and real bones. So when I am attempting to interest him in a tug toy here's what I've been trying in various combinations: standing sideways to him and galloping enthusiastically away from him, being down on the floor on all fours or lying on the floor, moving away from him and/or moving the toy and using an enthusiastic voice with lots of praise and dropping it right in front of him and encouraging him to get it. Today I put some chicken jerky inside a pair of socks, tied knots and he eventually figured out with my help that the scent was something in the sock and wanted to pull on it but only by himself. When I've tried these things, except the chicken sock today, he usually just wants me to pet him and doesn't seem to get what's going on. He comes to me with his head down and nuzzles up against me. (Was he dominated over in his previous home or what???) I have been working on pushing for almost a week and so we're still beginners--he's reluctant there too but making visible changes-- I'm seeing some improvement in myself and in his response. I have to work inside right now since our yard is frozen lumpy icey snow thanks to some freezing rain. It's impossible to work outside at the moment without stumbling or falling (I say from experience). In the future I'll shovel a circular path through the yard) I need some more strategies for getting tug started with my reluctant Brownie or maybe just encouragment to give pushing work more time before trying tug. Thanks for "listening".

[Lee Charles Kelley]

You might be going too fast. If I were you I'd stop trying to get him to play with me and wait until I was getting some real pushing for food from him before I'd try it again. By doing it too soon you may actually be making it harder for him to share his energy with you.

LCK

[BrownieNJoyce]

Thanks for your response, Lee. And I've been reading your site also. Really great stuff! I am so grateful to be able to learn from you, Neil and Kevin. I completely resonate with this approach.

Fortunately I only tried to get tug going once a day for a couple of days before asking for help. So I'll let it go for awhile. And today pushing was going much better. Weatherwise, it got eerily warm yesterday, but the benefit to me was that it rained and melted most of the snow... so we did pushing outdoors yesterday afternoon and this morning. I'll make sure I can continue to go outdoors for this even if we get another big snow. Also, I did the pushing right after our morning walk when he was still a bit revved from seeing squirrels and a cat. I so look forward to being squirrely or catty enough that he wants to resolve his energy with me when we're out walking since he's quite strong.

Even though we're at an early part of this process, there's a qualitative difference in our relating although it's hard to put into words at this point but the part I can describe is that he's looking right at me sometimes now indoors and once in awhile outdoors while we're walking

[Chris]

Originally Posted by dogismycopilot

Even though we're at an early part of this process, there's a qualitative difference in our relating although it's hard to put into words at this point but the part I can describe is that he's looking right at me sometimes now indoors and once in awhile outdoors while we're walking

Isn't it so great when you slowly realise that the dog is taking more notice of you. The one I love is when I play tug with Ty and his whole face lights up with excitement but oh those eyes, he gets that real 'wolf' look of attention and it's all for me keep up the good work, in time your Brownie will also love tug as much.

[BrownieNJoyce]

yes!!! and it's also great to feel part of a community of people who are working with their relationships with their dogs in the same way. Thanks for your support

[neilsattin]

a few tug tips to try:

1. great work on trying different toys - sounds like the socks-stuffed-with-jerky might be a hit! With dogs who aren't sure what to do, or don't like to bite down on a tug toy, I often look for toys with the "least amount of resistance" (soft, fluffy toys) and with things to entice (squeakies, treats inside, etc.). Once you hit upon something that works, you can expand from there.
2. Make sure that your initial tugs are ever-so-slight. Even just holding the other end of a tug toy briefly and then letting go is a "win" for your dog.
3. After you let go of the toy, see if you can then push against your dog's body a little bit - as it might encourage him to come towards you with the toy in his mouth for another "round" (as un-tug-like as the round actually seems to be).
4. Try attaching the toy to a string, or a thin leash, so you can be further away but still give little pulls (or make the toy move in a more prey-like fashion).

In general, though, it makes sense to work on your pushing, coming back to tug here and there to see how his responses change. Keep us posted!

[BrownieNJoyce]

Still experimenting with what will help me inroduce tug. A shoestring through an empty marrow bone gave me the opportunity to pull just a tiny bit on something he'll actually hold in his mouth so that was exciting. When we have to discard a marrow bone because he's gotten all the marrow and is starting to break off little chunks, I give him a treat so he'll leave the bone And then I dont have to take it directly from him or his mouth. I would NOT want it to be like ME winning in tug--He gives it over so easily. Does this sound okay? I still feel badly about taking the bone and wonder if it gives him a counterproductive message. Would love a response to this. Also...
question: how do people manage to raise a dog such that he doesn't play????? It's sad. And he seems very uncomfortable with me putting my head below his which I was imagining would counteract some of the submissiveness he demonstrates. I was just trying this but I'm not sure it would be a useful strategy. Just wondering what the NDT perspective ison my playless 6 year old lab

[neilsattin]

Hi Joyce,

Sounds like a great approach to tug! Build slowly - and focus more on your pushing. The exchange for the marrow bone as you described it is just fine.

I still feel badly about taking the bone

Why? Aren't you being a responsible parent in this situation, acting purely in the interest of keeping your dog safe? Especially because you're reclaiming the bone in a way that's win/win.

Here's something for you to try to encourage playfulness. Take some tasty treats. Get your dog to follow you around the house a little bit. Drop to the floor, roll over onto your back, and toss a treat to your dog. While you're on your back, tempt your dog with another treat, but playfully push him away once or twice before giving him the treat. Get up, move to a new room, repeat.

And a question: How much play and spontaneity is there in your own life?

On a more personal note - my dog Nola was NOT interested in tug when I first starting playing tug with her the "NDT way". She was completely confused about what I was asking her to do. She eventually warmed up to tug, but as soon as she'd win she'd grab the tug toy and run off about 100 yards away. From the DVDs, I think you can see that she got over her initial apprehension. And remember that I didn't even start working with her until she was in the range of 6-7 years old! So don't sweat it. You've actually got a head start on where I was with my dog back in, oh, 2004.

Instead, use it as an opportunity to bring more of that energy into your life. For yourself, as well as your dog.

[BrownieNJoyce]

Originally Posted by neilsattin

The exchange for the marrow bone as you described it is just fine....
...you're reclaiming the bone in a way that's win/win.

Okay, good...and I hadn't thought of it as being in a parent-type role to keep him safe. That helps.

Originally Posted by neilsattin

Here's something for you to try to encourage playfulness. Take some tasty treats. Get your dog to follow you around the house a little bit. Drop to the floor, roll over onto your back, and toss a treat to your dog. While you're on your back, tempt your dog with another treat, but playfully push him away once or twice before giving him the treat. Get up, move to a new room, repeat.

I had to be away for a stretch since this post but look forward to trying this over the weekend and will report at some point how the experiment goes.

Originally Posted by neilsattin

And a question: How much play and spontaneity is there in your own life?

[sigh] Not much. Good awareness...I could use to lighten up. This will be a challenge even more this year since my mom now has a terminal illness, but this is all the more reason to take advantage of the opportunities to focus on fun to create some balance during this period of my life.

Originally Posted by neilsattin

On a more personal note - my dog Nola was NOT interested in tug when I first starting playing tug with her the "NDT way". She was completely confused about what I was asking her to do. She eventually warmed up to tug, but as soon as she'd win she'd grab the tug toy and run off about 100 yards away. From the DVDs, I think you can see that she got over her initial apprehension. And remember that I didn't even start working with her until she was in the range of 6-7 years old! So don't sweat it. You've actually got a head start on where I was with my dog back in, oh, 2004.

That's encouraging since Nola is such a model of responsiveness in the DVDs!

I will keep posting over time as it is really helpful to be in dialogue about this process. I am so grateful for everything I've already learned.

[BrownieNJoyce]

I just re-read my earlier posts in this thread. I commented in one that I had been trying to interest my dog in tug for a week. I have such a different perspective on time and progress now! My current thinking is that as long as I keep practicing, it doesn't matter how long it takes to "succeed" in the skills. Relationships take time to develop whether it's a human-human or human-dog and Brownie and I are both having to unlearn other ways of being in relationship since he was likely trained previously with dominance, my other two dogs were less eager on the leash and had more confidence in general, and I am taking in the NDT approach which feels like a great fit for me but is growthful and challenging. I feel energized being in this process and look forward to each walk/training/play practice!