Mousing?

[Chris]

I've just been watching KB's video Eye Contact III and reading the comments were he talks about 'mousing', these comment make we wonder if I'm doing way too much fetch with Ty.

A year ago I was able to visit a trainer who was the closest thing to NDT here in NZ(due to were he lives I now can't do any more lessons with him), he didn't use pushing but lots of tug as a reward. He showed me to throw the Frisbee get Ty to bring it back, formal sit in front, get him to 'out' then give it back and tug, sit in front 'out' give it back and tug, after several times of doing this then throw it again. Once I got into NDT I've not been so strict with the formal sit in front but get him to come into me and we tug several times (he always wins) then I ask for 'out' and throw it.

In a normal day we'd have 5-6 sessions of this fetch-tug (the dogs are with me at work so I can play with them there from time to time) as well as two hikes/walks, the morning walk is 30 mins then we try for an hour hike at night.

Is all this fetch-tug doing too much and 'mousing' Ty?

[Indy]

I'm also curious about the distinction between mousing and actual hunting. What separates the two?

[neilsattin]

I saw that Kevin recently posted a bit about mousing in the comments on his site - I'm trying to find it and unable - so if any of you do, please feel free to post the link here in this thread.

In brief, "mousing" means that your dog's prey drive is being engaged, but your dog isn't actually releasing much - if any - of their pent up stress, because they don't actually have to work very hard to get the object of the hunt.

So imagine that your dog, who has all of this juice stored up in their emotional battery, comes upon a herd/flock of mice. Your dog goes crazy, chasing from one mouse to the other - maybe even catching a couple (poor mouses!). The effort expended is minimal, so imagine that after all of the mice are finally gone your dog might be all charged up but be jonesing for something MORE. That's mousing - hunting instinct engaged, relatively little stress released, relatively little emotional satisfaction for your dog.

Moosing, on the other hand, would be activities that stimulate your dog's prey drive but require EFFORT before you reach resolution. That's why you want to gradually work your dog into a harder and harder push - because you are getting deeper into their stress reserves, and correspondingly increasing the amount of satisfaction your dog experiences.

The relative satisfaction of moosing will always win out over mousing - which is why you'd be able, after you've really gotten into the pushing groove with your dog, to call your dog out of the swarm of mice for some pushing. And why, ultimately, your dog would see the mice, feel the FEELING of their prey drive revving, and look to you for an answer - without even bothering with the mice.

Make sense?

[Henry]

Here is the link with Kevin's comments.

http://naturaldogtraining.com/videos...de-3/#comments

[Chris]

Originally Posted by neilsattin

So imagine that your dog, who has all of this juice stored up in their emotional battery, comes upon a herd/flock of mice. Your dog goes crazy, chasing from one mouse to the other - maybe even catching a couple (poor mouses!). The effort expended is minimal, so imagine that after all of the mice are finally gone your dog might be all charged up but be jonesing for something MORE. That's mousing - hunting instinct engaged, relatively


Make sense?

Sort of makes sense Neil, so does that mean that Fetch-Tug is more mousing for our dog than Moosing?

[Jannik]

Is mousing the same as frustration?

Jannik

[neilsattin]

Zekety -
I haven't found fetch-tug to be "mousey" - but I'm incorporating lots of breaks for tug/push-o-war. If you focused on the running part exclusively (i.e. kept your dog going back and forth) then you would be getting to physical exhaustion without the emotional exhaustion. I wouldn't call it "mousing" per se - but I suppose that if you aren't getting into the emotional storage of your dog, then they're not getting destressed, and fetchtug isn't serving its ideal purpose at that point.

Jannik - "same as frustration" - not sure. But if it helps you to think of it as "frustrating" for your dog, then sure.

Remember, the goal is for you to teach your dog how to relax at higher and higher levels of energy - and you do that by helping them de-stress as the energy level escalates. Moosing accomplishes that. "mousing" (activating your dog's prey drive but not venting any stress) doesn't help in that regard.

[Chris]

Thanks so much Neil, sounds like I'm doing it right. I do heaps of tug, push-o-war and chase me around between throws to keep in interesting.

[Angelique]

I've been working with a standard poodle and owner with mobility issues. The poodle has unsupervised time in an invisible fence yard, which she would spend barking and chasing the chipmunks which she never caught (mousing?).

The owner is unable to play tug (and interestingly the dog will play with me, but not with the owner. Owner is very protective of her injured back and dog is tuned into this).

After three weeks of fetch in the yard every morning (and some box work), the dog is no longer going after the chipmunks when unsupervised and the barking has ceased. I had not expected this kind of result so quickly (and actually had introduced fetch for entirely different reasons), but I can only attribute it to the dog finally getting satisfaction out of catching the new "chipmunks" in her life. Okay, so she's not getting a moose experience, but with this particular dog and owner combo, it seems to be working.

[neilsattin]

Hi Angelique,

I hope that these results have been sustained!

I think this is an excellent example of how what a dog NEEDS is to get that stress out of the system. Through the work that you're doing, you're showing this dog what it feels like to resolve the energy that's stored within, and I'd have to think that'd be much more compelling than the chipmunks who keep scurrying out of reach.