pushing basics

[Drea]

Tucker has always wanted to play tug with me, bringing me the tug toy but not dropping it for a fetching session. I was schooled in the "don't play tug with your headstrong dog and never let them win" theory, and now I find out that he's been on board with tug all along. Pushing was slower to come about, and still Tucker is not that into it (though major progress is being made).But he loves the game of tug. I'm slowly working with him on "give" so that I can throw the tug, and then "bring it" for him to (obviously) bring it back. He won't always give it but I know he enjoys the game nonetheless.

BTW, having two identical tugs in Tucker's case doesn't amount to a hill of beans. When he has a tug in his possession, that's the only one that exists, no matter what I do. But I always let him win, even if he drops it for something better...he still gets it in the end..

[Heather]

I think there is an article about teaching the dog to drop the tug toy - is that the duplicate toy method?

I bet over time, once he knows that you are receptive to playing tug with him and he knows that the more he sees you with the toy the more he is going to get to enjoy the game, he will drop the toy more easily, it will be more about you and less about the toy itself.

Tucker sounds like my dog, Happy, in many ways, so I really enjoy reading about your experiences with him.

With Happy, if he keeps coming at me and pushing the toy into me after I let it go, I know he has a lot of energy to get out and he needs to fight more/rougher for the toy, when he takes it and trots around with it like he is victorious, I know it is a good time to praise him and wind down.

Sometimes one really good session of bringing down the "moose" will last him for a week or more, in between he won't want to play with the same intensity, although in the beginning he would want to play hard every time I took him out. If he gets grabby or overexcited in any situation I know he needs some serious tug time.

[Lee Charles Kelley]

Originally Posted by Heather

Sometimes one really good session of bringing down the "moose" will last him for a week or more, in between he won't want to play with the same intensity, although in the beginning he would want to play hard every time I took him out. If he gets grabby or overexcited in any situation I know he needs some serious tug time.

It's strange but true, that once you connect with your dog on the deepest possible level emotionally, through biting games, you don't have to worry so much about exercising him or her every single day. The connection to you is always open, keeping the dog's energy grounded.

LCK

[James]

Here is a question I haven't seen seen asked yet (not that the answer isn't somewhere I haven't looked).

Is there any specific reason push training is done with the dogs meal rather than say some high value treat (like cheese or hot dog pieces alone) that the dog values over their regular diet? It seems like this would take up less space in the treat pouch, mean less pieces falling on the ground, and create a lot more motivation.

I am just wondering why the mixed meal, (kibble+hot dog or raw food) over training treats (cheese cubes or hot dog pieces alone)?

[neilsattin]

Originally Posted by Heather

I think there is an article about teaching the dog to drop the tug toy - is that the duplicate toy method?

Yes Heather - when you use the 2nd toy, you maintain control over the game, and can teach your dog to drop the 1st toy. Essentially what I do is develop a rhythm, first - so before I even worry about "drop" I MAKE SURE that the dog is already freely dropping toy #1 because they want toy #2.

Then I simply add the voice command "out" (or whatev) AS the dog drops a toy. So the dog starts associating the command with what they're already doing - dropping the toy that was in their mouth in order to get #2.

And then after you practice this, the command starts working...like magic. Without the struggle.

Note that there is another important reason to take this approach, which is that the tug game becomes more about your interaction with your dog (which you control, from one toy to another) instead of being about "the toy". When you just use one toy the game becomes about that toy - and is noticeably less fruitful in terms of relationship-building.

[neilsattin]

Originally Posted by James

Is there any specific reason push training is done with the dogs meal rather than say some high value treat (like cheese or hot dog pieces alone) that the dog values over their regular diet? It seems like this would take up less space in the treat pouch, mean less pieces falling on the ground, and create a lot more motivation.

I am just wondering why the mixed meal, (kibble+hot dog or raw food) over training treats (cheese cubes or hot dog pieces alone)?

There are a few reasons I can think of, although before I tell you any of them let me say that frequently if a dog is too inhibited to work with the mixed food I WILL just use hot-dog, cheese, sweet potato, etc. Sometimes I have to do that to prime the pump.

OK - and as for the reasons that I can think of:

1. Using the meal gives the owners a structure for doing the training. You just go out at mealtime, and you can train your dog while feeding their normal portion.
2. Prevents overfeeding - if you were using treats AND then just feeding a meal you might end up with a fat doggie.
3. It's more likely that the dog will be hungry when it comes time to push. While this can be less of an issue with an enthusiastic dog who loves food, often a timid/inhibited dog NEEDS hunger in order to overcome their fear of the new exercise.
4. As an addendum to that - even an enthusiastic dog sometimes needs to be extra hungry when it comes to having them push through something that would normally trigger their aggression/other problem behavior.
5. Allows mealtime to be a relationship-building time that creates even more dynamic energy between human and dog.
6. When using treats, the tendency is to just dole them out, one or two at a time. I WANT to be able to reach into a pouch and just pull out a handful of food. It makes me faster, and requires less thought. If I pull out handfuls of treats - well, I'll be going through LOTS of treats.
7. Using treats makes it feel like pushing is "special". Using meals reinforces that pushing becomes something part of your normal routine.
8. Being able to just reach into a pouch, pull out a handful of food, push with a hungry dog for his dinner, etc. all allows the entire experience to be fun, enthusiastic, messy, and ultimately more about the interaction happening between human and dog than about treats for "rewarding a push".
9. Not that I necessarily want it to be messy, but if a dog stops to clean up then it gives me an opportunity to either catch my breath OR figure out something to do that's even more exciting than food on the ground. Running away maybe? There's a shot of how this might work on DVD #2 during the heeling work - an explanation of what to do if your dog stops to clean up.
10. Think about mealtime in a family - the difference between a meal where people just grab food and run, versus a mealtime where everyone gathers around to cook and eat together, talking about life, interacting with each other, etc. That's what you're after with pushing with your dog for meals - a mealtime that creates more of a sense of family and trust between you, rather than something you just have to get through in order to get nourishment.

Turns out there are a lot of good reasons!

Thanks for asking, James!

[Drea]

I fasted Tucker P for two days (there were some treats during that time, but no real meals). The third day, I filled my pouch with his kibble, cut up food log, cheese cubes, and his glucosamine. Per Sang's suggestion, we worked on heeling. He did really well with that, but when it came time to push, it was lackadaisical, at best. He'd start out at a good clip coming towards me, but wouldn't push. So we've gone back to the beginning, where I just massage his neck while he smells the food in my hand. Then zing.

He also still won't give up the first tug for the second one. There's no amount of enticement that I can offer to get him interested in the one he doesn't have.

[Sang]

Hey Drea, did you introduce the heeling after or before you tried pushing? I should have made it more clear that only after he's really putting his energy into pushing should you then channel into heeling. You can sort of consider that as a rule of thumb. Always pushing first to get the energy going, and then channel it into heeling, settling on the box, etc.....

[Sang]

So I was just about to rush out of the house when I posted my last response, so it was really brief.

I just wanted to also ask if you had ever trained Tucker to heel using other methods. The reason I ask is that if you did work with him on things like heeling using either +R or correction techniques, then asking him to heel before he's totally expressing his energy into the push, will actually send him back into his old training, which will shut him down and make him emotionally "stuck", since +R and coercion based training focus on suppressing the dog's energy. Which is why it's so important to really get that valve open and get his energy going before asking him to do any kind of obedience type work right now.

So just focus on keeping the energy moving for now, and only once the energy is REALLY going through things like pushing, then go ahead and get him to heel with you, etc....but if you feel that he's bogging down at all, immediately go back to pushing and getting his energy going.

Hope that helps and clears things up a bit

[Drea]

After the fasting, Tucker and I worked on heeling first, then pushing. I'll do it the other way around tomorrow. And that brings me back to my earlier quandary of how to get Tucker pushing again. We were doing so well for a while.

I'll go back and review the first DVD.