Growling during Tug/Letting Others Play

[jojo]

I've got 2 questions, but one evolved from the other.

How do most people feel about they're dogs growling during tug or pushing?

Do people let others play tug with their dog, or should this be limited to only the dog's handler?


Remy and I are in the office a lot lately, unfortunately, as I write a report (I'm a field biologist so typically we're out and about most of the day). A few of the people in the office like to play with Remy when they walk by our cubicle. Remy can't get enough tug, so I've been letting them,(plus everyone keeps getting laid off so those that are left need to let out some tension too).

When Remy tugs with me he is not usually vocal, and tends to just pull steady. When he does growl, I tend to growl back. I've always found vocal dogs to be adorable- love all the sounds huskies and northern breeds make. When Remy plays with others he tends to growl a lot, and really rip his head around, very different from how he is with me, but it does not sound like tense growling but play noises (to me). I've had 2 male roommates in the past few years who have played much more energized tug than I do, so I think he approaches tug with men differently. They didn't mind his noises, but other people get nervous, and it makes me wonder that maybe I should discourage the noises, or just not allow others to play tug with him.

[Lee Charles Kelley]

Not everyone can detect the difference between a play growl and the real thing. You may need educate all of Remy's play partners on how to do that, which could be difficult to do. Their nervousness may be making Remy more nervous when he's playing tug. Also, they'd need to follow the rule of always letting him win and praising him enthusiastically for winning. Another tough teaching assignment.

If your co-workers are playing with him indoors, that could also be a factor. You should always play tug outdoors.

I hope this helps,

LCK

[jojo]

Thanks Lee,
I do cheat on the playing indoors thing. Remy is pretty mellow, and so it hasn't been a problem. I'm not sure what the problems are that come from playing inside, I think just the dog potentially being hyper inside? I know that it is discouraged by you and Neil, I don't remember Kevin talking about it in his book, but it's been a while since I read it. He'll nudge for tug or petting, but if I tell him firmly to stop he will and can lay still and not be a nuisance.

The growling and ferocity seems to be the same indoors and outdoors when playing with strangers, and he seems to pull the toy in the same steady silent way with me inside or outside.

Do you feel playing inside will, for any reason, make him more likely to bite people?

Remy always wins tug, even before I found Neil's website.
He's broken 3 canines, and had 3 root canals (costing about $1000 each, as well as his pain and suffering). The dental specialist we see thinks he was probably kept behind bars and wore off all the enamel on his teeth chewing them, they had dark spots from the beginning, and seemed to break at those spots. This vet also feels we should never play tug (I suspect he broke them busting up sticks not tugging, but I don't ever see it happen so who knows), that no dog should ever play tug, but as I said it's really his favorite activity in the world. This vet has attached titanium teeth to dogs involved in schutzhund or police work, so he knows some people will not give it up the activity. Anyway, no one is tearing a toy from his teeth or they'll face one angry woman.

I did use to really enforce he drop the toy for no reward before I started reading NDT, poking him in the tongue and using a harsh voice, but now we always trade for another toy or treat to end the game, and if he's not to revved up he will just drop when asked nicely. I do use some homemade toys (natural ropes and old socks stuffed with other old socks) that I'll let him keep and destroy.

Explaining play growling to people is difficult, as you said. And some people, including some trainers will say that growling is never play. Although watching dogs play with each other, clearly it is and there is to me, an obvious change in pitch as well as the dog's body language.

[cliff]

Lenny growls a bit when we play rough together. When he plays with our daughter-in-law's Chihuahua, you'd think they were killing each other— barking, running, growling, "biting". But if there's a problem, the small one squeaks and L backs off. It's also quite interesting that they take turns "submitting" to each other.

As you get to know your dog's moods, you'll get the difference between "Back Off" and "This's Fun!"