How do I know if pushing is working?

[Valerie]

Hello, I just wrote a long-winded intro but this gist is I have two dogs, Eka my 9 month mutt fluffy terrier, and a 2 year-old foster rat terrier named Barkley.

How do you know pushing is working?

Eka doesn't really push so I'm trying to just pet her neck and chest like Kevin said in a comment on his blog. Maybe I need to use more enticing food?

Barkley does push into my hand once I've moved the food out quite a bit from the pushing hand. He did seem to bark less at my husband (he often barks at men) today, or was that a fluke? He barked at him later in the day. Otherwise no immediate changes like the Rottweiler Neil talked about on his blog.


Such an interesting exercise. I hope I can understand it and really use it.

[Chris]

It will take someone with lots more understanding of NDT to answer you questions on pushing as I've only just started myself.

For me I've been full on pushing with Ty 4 days now, thankfully he is a good pushing. I feed a raw diet so have really tasty treats which I think helps.

You read about the dog giving you his energy or grounding himself, I thought this was a little hard to believe but I'm getting a sort of calming effect in Ty that I can't explain. A couple of times I really thought "Wow he really gave me that stress'. Ty's a highly reactive dog with a very high prey drive so barks at many things and chases anything that moves but in the last few days there has been a slight improvement that I can only put down to 'pushing' (or he's ill, which he's not with his energy). If this change continues I can only say it has to be the pushing at work. I also think pushing is calming for the owner, in a stress situation I'm busy trying to redirect Ty into a push so too busy to get uptight about whatever he's reacting too and this must help him de-stress also.

[Lee Charles Kelley]

Some dogs are initially reluctant to push into you, so making the food more enticing helps. It's also helpful if they're hungry, so for some dogs I make a rule that if they don't push at breakfast it means they're not really hungry and I don't feed them till dinner time.

Also, I always let the dog eat from my open hand a little first before putting my 2nd hand against her chest. If she shows nervousness when that 2nd hand comes into the picture, I use it to scratch her neck, etc., as Kevin suggests.

Think of it as a series of steps you'd have to go through to get a lost dog to trust you enough to come eat out of your hand. The first step is to get down on the dog's level as much as possible, the 2nd is to entice them with the food, the 3rd is to get them to eat, the 4th is to get them to enjoy being petted, the 5th is to get them to push into as you move your food hand away in very tiny incremental steps.

I hope this helps!
LCK
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[neilsattin]

Hi Valerie,

Thanks for your question.

What Zekety reports is common as people start out with pushing - recognizing a "calmness" in their dog, which would be the result of a dog's venting some of the stress that's been stored inside. Of course it's purely a subjective judgment on the part of the owner.

I think the question would be - as you're working on pushing, do you find that you get, gradually, more and more from your dog? That would also be a sign that it's "working" - even if "getting more" means that today Eka lets you massage her neck while you are feeding her without trying to withdraw - and yesterday she was more reluctant to let you even make contact. Progress is a good sign that the inner mechanics are at work.

Generally when you begin pushing with a dog that's inhibited, it can be a process to get that dog to the point where they push enthusiastically - since you are not only giving your dog a completely new way to relate to you, but you are also showing that dog a safe way to feel energized (instead of inhibiting their energy). As an example, it even took my dog awhile before I had a consistent push from her - or a tug from her.

And that reminds me - playing tug (as outlined in my article on tug of war) is a great way to make progress on the "dynamic" - perhaps a bridge in a reluctant dog?

I agree with Lee's advice for how to think of the initial steps - be gradual! And, at the risk of sounding like a plug, my DVDs show me working with an EXTREMELY reluctant golden retriever - along the spectrum of enthusiasm to some very energetic dogs - so you get a sense of what it might look like as you move along the continuum.

Thanks for a great question.

[neilsattin]

Ultimately you'll also REALLY see that it's "working" when you get to the technique of redirection. Then you'll see your dog "give you energy" when energized by something else in the environment. It's an a-ha moment for many people.

[Lee Charles Kelley]

I was explaining this to a client the other day by telling her a story about what my dog Freddie started doing at the dog run. (This was before the pushing exercise was invented.)

At any rate, Freddie had a tendency to hump some dogs, so I did an exercise where -- without getting into specifics -- all the energy and emotion he had invested in the humping behavior was redirected into chasing me and jumping up on me as I ran away from him.

Then one day, out of nowhere, as I was talking to someone at the dog run while Freddie was off doing his own thing, he ran over and started excitedly jumping up on me, twisting up in the air and dancing around, happy as could be. At first I had no idea why he was doing it. Then I realized that he'd seen a dog come into the dog run, had an urge to go hump that dog, but came over and jumped up on me instead. In other words, the game I'd played with him caused him to seek out an alternative means of offloading his energy, totally on his own, with no signal or prompting from me.

The pushing exercise is actually a better way to do this because you won't have your dog jumping up on you totally out of nowhere!

I hope this helps!
LCK
www.LeeCharlesKelley.com
My Psychology Today Blog
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[Valerie]

Thanks everyone! Ok I'm taking it all in and I read some of Kevin's comments today and it makes my brain hurt. I probably need to go slower. I thought I learned new depths of patience (or my lack thereof) with my kids but I think Eka is taking me to a new level.

How often should I try the pushing? I tried with both dogs at both meals today and neither of them were really into it at dinner, bfast was ok. Need to up the value of the food I know. Yesterday I think I only did breakfast and Barkley did some pushing. Eka let me pet her but she didn't really push. Is that too much? Is pushing a daily , weekly, thing?

Also I may need to figure out how to work with them separately. Eka is my velcro dog (does not always mean obedience though, she's just near me most of the time, won't stay outside by herself for very long.) When they are both out Eka horns in on Barkley's pushing sometimes. So if I take Barkley outside she barks at me through the sliding glass door. Barkley is so pulled to go outside that it's hard to keep him back and just take out Eka. He's always the first out the door. I admit I have not tried too hard to keep them separate, but wondering if it's important that I do?

Lulu said my book is on the way.... I'm trying to be patient.

[Lee Charles Kelley]

Hi, Valerie,

Yes, you have to feed them separately. It'll work much better that way. If you want you can tie one of them up while you feed the other one. This may actually make the 2nd dog more interested in pushing when it's her turn.

Also, I wouldn't think of it as "upping the value of their food," but making it more "desirable." I know it sounds like an unnecessary distinction, but when you talk about what dogs value (as opposed to what they find desirable) you're unconsciously suggesting that they can compare one thing with another, and that's not true. Helen Keller said that before she learned to use sign language she wasn't able to make any kind of comparison. You absolutely need language to do that. So just to be a stickler I always use tell people to mix in food that's more "desirable."

If you're having trouble with Kevin's explanations of some of these concepts you might want to watch his videos. For some reason this stuff makes more sense (at least to me), when he's talking about it than when he's writing it.

I hope this helps!
LCK
“Changing the World, One Dog at a Time”
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[Valerie]

Oh yes high value treats work much better. They both pushed much more than with their regular food.

The thing I'm worried about with my picky puppy is that after getting lots of treats one day she will often shun her regular food for a couple of days until she gets really hungry again and I reactively cut back on the treats.

Once she's tasted more 'desirable' food she is slow to eat anything less desirable. But I'm still comparing, and you are saying she is not comparing? So her food is just not desirable after she's eaten the treats?

[Valerie]

And the videos I'm really enjoying the Quantum Canine videos, and the additional ones added on youtube.