Food For Thought

[srwnc]

I'm not sure where I should post this, so posting it here. I found a wolf research article interesting, which seems to enforce the Natural Dog Theory/Method, so I'm placing it here for others to read and discuss.
shaun ellis wolfman
Myself I have 2 GSDs (1yr female(German line) & 9 mo male (Czech & Netherlands). I have had many GSDs in my past, but been away from dogs for 10 yrs since moving into the suburbs until last year. In getting my new pups last year I did research to see what was new in training techniques. In my past I lived in the country with lots of land, my dogs were very well trained, I had 5, a pack and were outside dogs. They did not run or chase unless an animal was in the garden or trying to mess with the chickens, etc. Dogs, cats, chickens free ranging, dairy goats walking around all in harmony. I mean all out in the yard together.
Anyway, I came across the Natural Dog Training web site, purchased the book & Neils DVD. I was most intrigued by the theory and I have used the techniques with success. This gave me new insight into dogs & a better handler/trainer.

I invite people to discuss thoughts about the article I mentioned above in general and how it relates to Natural Dog training.
It also contains a paragraph on using prey drive that was interesting. I happen only to play with my dogs like tug or chase to get them focused on me and use food later or in other training like pushing or reinforce other positive actions.
Excerpt:
“We found that there are a lot of comparisons in the way the wolf works its social order and how the dog wants to work it. The difficulty comes in the compromise, its allowing the dog to be a little bit wolf, but also giving the dog the knowledge it need to operate in our world. The prey drive in a lot of dogs is people’s downfall, their inability to control it; a lot of this comes from a lack of understanding. Many people believe that if a dog chases an animal, that, if they can terminate the chase, bring the dog back and then reward it with food that will actually stop that animal from chasing again. All they have done, really, is highlighted whatever the dog is chasing as a food source by rewarding with food. The dog should be bought back and rewarded with warmth; to tell the dog that security was the reward here. Then maybe a ball or toy could be thrown in a prey like manner and then the food reward given at that point, high lighting to the dog
that they prey drive comes from chasing the ball not the animal”, though, he explains “the reward has to match the animals social order”.

[Lee Charles Kelley]

Originally Posted by srwnc

I'm not sure where I should post this, so posting it here. I found a wolf research article interesting, which seems to enforce the Natural Dog Theory/Method, so I'm placing it here for others to read and discuss.
shaun ellis wolfman
Excerpt:
“We found that there are a lot of comparisons in the way the wolf works its social order and how the dog wants to work it. ... “the reward has to match the animals social order”.

You have to remember that this guy was living with captive wolves, and their behavior doesn't bear much of a relationship to wild wolf or domesticated dog behaviors. Wild wolves hunt for a living, captive wolves don't.

One of the key precepts of Natural Dog Training is that all behavior, in all animals, wild or domesticated, is based on the reduction of internal tension or stress, and that for dogs and wolves the prey drive is the central organizing principle in their social behavior. It's also the ultimate stress-reducer for wolf and dog alike.

David Mech, who's the world's leading expert on wild wolf behavior, doesn't like to use the word "alpha" anymore because he says it "falsely implies a hierarchical system in which a wolf assumes a place in a linear pecking order." The term alpha is only meant to indicate an animal's breeding status, nothing else.

In his book Natural Dog Training Kevin Behan was the first person to describe the pack in terms of emergence theory, as a bottom-up, not a top-down system. (Kevin had never heard of emergence theory when he wrote it, but his description is perfectly aligned with the theory.) He was also the first person to dispute the ideas of dominance and submission in canine social behavior. On his website he's said that if there is a hierarchy in canines, it's a hierarchy of desire, not dominance. He makes the point that in the army -- which is clearly a dominance hierarchy -- if you disobey your superior officer, you get sent to the bring. Yet in wolf packs, and in multiple dog households, the rule is, "whoever wants something more, whether it's a bone, the best place to lie down, etc., gets to keep it."

So Shaun Ellis' view of wolves, even though he lived among* them is based on a mistaken premise. However, the point Ellis makes about "rewarding" the dog for giving up chasing squirrels is actually close to the truth, simply because being given a treat is a paltry replacement for the overpowering rush a dog gets when chasing a squirrel. This is a simple energy equation, having nothing to do with positive reinforcement training or dominance.

From a Natural Dog Training standpoint, the idea that positive reinforcement should be based on the dog's social order is invalid in two ways. First of all, when positive reinforcements work - that is when they cause a behavior to be learned - they do so by reducing the animal's internal tension or stress. Sometimes food does that, sometimes it doesn't. But that's the operational factor. Secondly there is no social order, at least not the kind that Ellis has projected onto wolves, and which he reinforced through his own beliefs and behaviors while he was interacting with them.

After saying all that, yes. When a dog comes back to you after chasing a squirrel it's better to play a game of chase or tug than to give the dog a treat. That's because he's chasing the squirrel -- i.e., using his prey drive -- to resolve or release some internal tension, pressure or stress, and as I said, he gets a rush from doing it. And when the dog finds that he gets more of a release by playing tug with his owner (he almost never gets to bite the squirrel but he's always able to bite the tug toy), he's much less likely to chase squirrels. The owner becomes the center pole, so to speak, of the dog's tent.

LCK

"Chasing Squirrels"

"The Myth of the Pack Leader"

"Is Your Dog Dominant? Pt. I"

"Is Your Dog Dominant? Pt. II"

"Is Your Dog Dominant? Pt. II"

"Pack Leader or Predator?"

[srwnc]

Lee, Thanks for the reply and great insight. I do think there are relevant insights to learn from Sean's research & living with wolfs. They are somewhat wild in that it did mention he did teach them to hunt and one wolf brought a kill back to him in his sleep, a rat he caught and placed it on Sean's head. I understand Kevin's theory and I agree with them. I'm just trying to understand them within Sean's insight and I see some similarities which enforce Kevin's theory. I think there is a ordering system within the pack, but as Kevin & you explain & I agree its not made by dominance or force. Other traits lead to being Alpha, i.e. best tracker, food finder, organizer, etc. These are essential traits for the pack to survive. I do not think Sean implied a hierarchical system by dominate force. But there is an order and each Wolf has a role. He explains it is the Beta Wolfs who enforce, the protector, they protect the Alphas from outside intruders etc, which makes sense to me because again the Alpha's are the survival of the pack. His article on howling demonstrates this. Also he mentions it's the lowly Omega wolf that actually relieves tension in the pack. They all have a role to play for total pack survival.
I haven't read Sean's books, but intend too. This article was only a glimpse. Also there are other clips. Nat'l Geo & Animal planet both did documentaries about Sean and his work. Some clips are here.

A Man Among Wolves | National Geographic Channel

Meet the Pack : Living with the Wolfman : Animal Planet

Its quite fascinating how he interacts with the wolfs as wolflike as a human can be. He also works with other Wolf researches, zoos, etc and his research is finding ways in which wolfs and humans can live together safely. I.E. Learning how wolfs create territories so ranchers can produce boundaries that a Wolfpack would respect. I think his work and dedication are honorable. I think his discoveries of wolfs can be useful for domesticated dogs as well. I had a pack of dogs (5 outside dogs) and spent lots of time with them as a member & leader. That is one reason I agree with Kevin's theory because I saw and experienced much of that within my pack. In my pack of dogs there was a natural order amongst them, I saw it. Not by dominance beat down, but there was an order. I also see that evolving in the 2 new dogs I have now. My female takes the lead on the trails in the woods, even in my larger yard, she is definitely the better tracker. But when something occurs, like a strange dog appears on the trail, or someone comes to the gate or door my male takes the lead, the protector. This is what I saw before reading Sean's work, which surprised me when I saw this in Sean's article, but made sense to me because I was seeing it myself within my own dogs.
Anyway, this is a subject that has always been a passion of mine since a child and I am always searching for new insights into dog & wolf behavior.
Thanks again for your time and sharing your expertise. I value your input, Steve