Using relaxation during tugging

[joframe]

I have a question about the use of relaxation alongside pushing. I have started using pushing my 3 dogs over the last week, twice a day, feeding them their meals this way. They all have different temperaments - one sensitive (Jack), one nervous (Logan) and one excitable puppy (Archie). When I try and massage them between pushing none of them seem to want to. The sensitive one puts his nose to the ground to see what he might have missed and tries to squirm away, the nervous one rolls over onto his back, and the puppy (9 months) wants more food - and I start to worry that I'm doing it wrong. On rechecking Neil's DVD he says it is important that is relaxed and getting rid of tension.

Can anyone recommend how and when I should incorporate the relaxation and suggest anything I might be doing wrong that is eliciting these behaviours?

Many thanks

Joanne

[Sang]

In the early stages of working with your dogs this way, it’s going to be challenging for them to be able to settle. You can start by massaging their necks while they’re pushing into you for food. So do the pushing as normal, and then once they take the food from you and drop their paws back on the ground (that is if they’re lifting their paws off the ground to push), then spend a few moments massaging the neck before the next push. That can be a good way to start getting them more comfortable with your touch.

But what will really help them learn to be relaxed is the settle work on a box or raised platform. The pushing opens them up to get their energy going, and then the settle work on the box gives them a place to put it so they begin to learn how to be calm and relaxed at high levels of intensity. I believe Neil goes through the settle/boxwork process in the dvds.

Once they learn to settle on the box/platform, they’ll be more open to being able to receive your touch without becoming unhinged.

Hope that helps.

[joframe]

that's great, I'll get moving on identifying a box!

I have a related question. I am managing the pushing quite successfully but getting the play in between is a proving difficult - how important is the play along with the food ? My hamilton is reluctant to tug - I have tried it with him previously with not much success. My trailhound is really not keen - he is motivated by movement but not keen on holding anything for any length of time and for my lab, who I want to train as a gundog, I have been told that I shouldnt play tug!

I tried using two balls for the lab, which he will happily run for and drop for the next, bit like how tugs are used in neils dvd, but I read a report on dogstar daily that suggested that too much ball chasing could be stressful - and I did see that with the puppy after a few time he stopped bringing it back and ran around madly with it in his mouth - i wondered if that is what I was seeing

I am getting the impression that the tugging is important because its the interaction - in which case I should persevere - is that right? soory - sound like a worried mother - which I suppose I am! Any hints gratefully received

[Sang]

Don't worry too much about it. The tug is definitely important, but it will come as the pushing gets stronger and stronger. The pushing is the gateway to allowing the dog to open up emotionally to being able to play tug. Right now there's still too much resistance between you and your dogs that needs to be overcome, which the pushing will do.

I would also lay off the fetch with the balls. One of my dogs used to be CRAZY about playing fetch, but in hindsight it was actually just frying her little circuits and overstimulating her, without giving her the resolution she was really looking for, which a good game of tug provides. In fact, pushing for meals alone is more satisfying than fetching balls, as there's not enough emotional resistance a dog has to overcome when fetching balls to get what he wants.

Yes, you should persevere in your quest to get your dogs to play tug with you. Don't give up, it will eventually happen. Just have patience and keep on pushing.

So how are you going about trying to get your dogs to play tug with you, if you don't my asking.

[joframe]

thanks for the feedback and reassurance.

Regarding tug, I shake the tug toy and run away with it - have tried pulling it on a string. When food is around it is really difficult to get any interest with the two hounds. I bought a 5 hour leerburg dvd about training your dog to use tug last year - and I followed the advise in that - I got some response but at the end it said if you had a really food oriented dog like a bassett hound (my hamiltonstovare) then you could be wasting your time....! so I suppose that has put a barrier in my head as well. I've just realised though that Jack plays tug with the pup, so maybe I'm the problem, having done too much obedience training with him - maybe I need to up my prey behaviour and maybe play tug at different times to feeding, say when I get home at night and they are full of energy? What do you think? Have you got any recommendations on teaching tug?

[Lee Charles Kelley]

Originally Posted by joframe

maybe I need to up my prey behaviour and maybe play tug at different times to feeding, say when I get home at night and they are full of energy? What do you think? Have you got any recommendations on teaching tug?

Setting up a training situation for when you first get home is a very good idea. There's always a surge of energy -- partially the result of the dog having an unconscious, atavistic urge to bite whatever comes through the door -- which can be utilized for training purposes.

Lee Charles Kelley: A Post About Dogs and Doorways

Another thing that usually gets a dog's urge to bite in play revved up is doing a reverse alpha roll.

Lee Charles Kelley: How to Do an Alpha Roll

Both of these ideas work best, though, when you're working with each dog separately.

I hope this helps!
LCK

[joframe]

Thanks Lee Charles - very helpful links - I can see how you need to work with the dogs separately! I will try that.

[Mobi NZ]

Hi - i have a similar question regarding playing tug and pushing. Ted is really great at pushing and playing tug. But if i try to do them in the same session - he is not interested in the tug game because he just looks at me wanting more pushing / food.
Is it alright to separate these 2 games? thanks

[rudy]

I have a cocker, Lou, and we cocker people tend to joke that they must have been cross bred with piggies somewhere in their lineage. VERY food motivated. When Lou is so full he can hardly move he STILL is food motivated

But, with time and patience he now tugs.