Push vs. touch

[Russell]

Cesar Millan discusses push vs. touch.

How would NDT tackle this problem?

[Lee Charles Kelley]

There's so much wrong in Cesar's explanation of the problem, and in how he solves it, yet it's hard to dispute the visual evidence of the "results," isn't it?

For starters, even without knowing that dominance is not a real character trait or behavioral output in dogs, it's quite easy to see that the Dane is simply expressing a strong social attraction -- the desire to connect to his owner -- in an inappropriate way. He's also feeling nervous because he's unsure of how to align his energy with his owner while they're running: faster forward momentum = a challenge to the dog's ability to feel or stay connected, so he's jumping up on his owner to ground some of that excess energy.

You never want to punish or correct social attraction, no matter what form it takes. And you especially don't want to do it by intimidating the dog, as Cesar does. He's actually acting very much like a predator in order to keep the dog in a "submissive" state. (You can see this clearly in the section where he first demonstrates the "touch" to the throat -- which in the past he described as a "bite," as in "If a dog can bite me, why I can't I bite him back? -- then moves into the dog's space, and the dog looks evens more nervous and unsure of himself.) In short, the problem is "solved" by repressing the dog's energy instead of channeling it into a happy, joyous heel.

Personally, I probably wouldn't take a great Dane jogging anyway. (I don't thinking jogging is a good idea with most dogs, particularly those with a big barrel chest and narrow waist.*)

But barring telling the owner to come up with another exercise plan for his dog**, if we look at this behavior as an energy problem, the way to solve it would be keep that level of energy active in the dog, but give it a different outlet w/o intimidating or repressing the dog's drive to connect. In other words, keep the dog's drive energy up but channel it into the heel. (The Dane kind of learns to do this on his own, but is still confused and not as energetic as before.)

Contrast CM's approach with this video of Kevin working on the heel with a Doberman pinscher: Kevin Heel Training with Laszlo The Official Natural Dog Training Website: News, Discussions, Advice, Training Tips and Techniques from Kevin Behan

You'll notice that Kevin starts out with the pushing exercise to stimulate Laszlo's social attraction. Then he subtly oscillates between acting like prey and predator. Each shift in his body language creates a shift in Laszlo's approach to staying in-synch with Kevin's movements. There is no intimidation or dominance and submission. (He does occascionally touch Laszlo's neck with the back of his hand, which is done to help ground the dog's energy a little and to "steer" him a little, they you'd do with a horse's reins.) You'll also notice (I hope) the way Kevin does the about turns, which force Laszlo to stay in the pocket. To help with this he uses food as a means of keeping the dogs drive-to-connect up and active. It's more like a dance, one that leaves Laszlo entirely under Kevin's command with no punishment or bad feelings taking place. At the end, Laszlo is heeling off-lead, and his energy is totally plugged in to Kevin.

LCK

*Breeds like Danes, Dobermans, Dalmatians, viszlas, boxers, greyhounds, who all have a similar chest conformation, are designed to run hard and fast for brief spurts, not to jog slowly for long stretches.

**Working on the heel the way Kevin does will use up more of a dog's energy in 5 - 10 minutes than a 1/2 hour jog will. If you add playing tug, fetch, and push-of-war, the dog's energy needs will be completely satisfied.

[Lee Charles Kelley]

I read something interesting on Kevin's blog yesterday (or the day before), about how nearly everyone who takes their first ride on a camel or elephant experiences motion sickness, but this doesn't happen when riding a horse for the first time. Kevin's reasoning is that this is because horses know how to adjust their movements to incorporate the rider's center of gravity.

In thinking about that statement, and in working on a blog article of my own which will compare Cesar's method of teaching a dog to heel, another, new example from the positive training field (linked below), and Kevin's work with Laszlo, I realized that what's missing from both the dominance and +R approach, and what's now more clear to me about what Kevin does, is that dogs really do have an emotional center of gravity, as Kevin postulates. And when we teach them to heel using thoughtcentric models they have to figure out, on their own, how to match their forward momentum and energy with ours. But when we teach them using Natural Dog Training techniques, no matter how bad we are at it initially, if our goal is to teach the dog to be in-synch with us physically and emotionally (instead of by teaching them to respect our leadership, or by rewarding external behaviors only), at some point we'll find that we're creating a feeling in the dog of a shared center of gravity. In that respect, heeling not only feels natural to the dog. It feels really, <i>really</i> good.

This also reminded me of how I taught Freddie to heel years ago using techniques from Kevin's book, where I put him in a high-energy state and found, somewhat clumsily, the invisible point in space where our emotional centers of gravity were aligned and locked together.

"Fine. So what?" Some might argue. "A heel is a heel. The dog learns it or he doesn't."

Perhaps, but a year or so after I taught Freddie to heel in this way, I was at an ad hoc dog run in my neighborhood (an asphalt basketball court behind a high school on Second Avenue) with Freddie and a Jack Russell terrier named Mack. At one point, it started to drizzle, and some kids in another part of the park started setting off firecrackers. Mack decided he'd like to go home, so he found a gap in the chain link fence, wriggled through, and started trotting up 68th Street toward Second Avenue. I'd been working on Mack's recall but hadn't perfected it yet. So I had no choice but to either let him wander into traffic and get run over or to go after him.

I couldn't wriggle through the fence the way he did, though. In order to get out of there, I had to go the opposite direction. I ran toward the gate and called Freddie in an excited tone, but didn't waste any time putting his leash on. I just ran and he ran with me.

We crossed 68th Street together and ran toward Second. I was scanning the sidewalk, looking for any traces of Mack, though I couldn't see him; he'd already turned the corner at the end of the block. Then I finally looked down and saw that Freddie was running right next to me, in perfect synch with my gait, and had been gazing directly up at me the whole time. I hadn't commanded him to heel. The only thing I'd done was to call his name and run. And he ran with me in a perfect heel. (We turned the corner, I questioned some pedestrians about Mack's whereabouts, and finally found him wandering the aisles of a video store, pestering the employees for treats!)

The point is, we may get a pretty good heel by training a dog through either dominance or positive reinforcement. But unless we understand how the dog experiences such training techniques as actually interfering with his ability to be in-synch with us both physically and emotionally, we automatically lose the ability to have the kind of pin-point control I had with Freddie in a high-energy, high-pressure situation.

Here's a link to video, chosen at random off YouTube, showing one example of teaching the heel using "positive reinforcement."

LCK

[Lee Charles Kelley]

Here’s an example of the traditional clicker-training and food-luring method, as shown by Nancy Cusick, a trainer from Austin, Texas. (I pulled this video at random from YouTube.)

Nancy Cusick teaching a puppy to heel using treats and a clicker.

There are several things I think are lacking in this approach. One is that the puppy is too young for the exercise. She just wants to sniff and explore. Each time she does, Cusick redirects her with a kissing sound. Why is this a problem? Because each time the trainer redirects the pup she becomes an obstacle to the puppy’s desire, a desire that’s more controlled by the puppy’s own developmental needs than it is by the need to move in synch with her handler.

Also, at one point when the pup sits while not in the heel position, the trainer moves her body next to the pup’s rather than using her own body language and energy to induce the puppy to move toward her. Then she clicks and rewards the dog for being in that position. This is based on the somewhat questionable idea that dogs learn through positive reinforcement: if the dog is reinforced while it’s in the proper position it will gradually learn to choose that position on its own. (Notice that despite the seeming validity of this idea, the more the trainer rewards the puppy for being in the heel position, the more the puppy actually wants to explore and do things on her own.)

Another problem is that when the trainer accidentally drops food on the ground, and the puppy goes after it, the trainer makes the kissing sound to try to redirect the puppy’s attention back where she thinks it should be, on the trainer. Again, you can see clearly that the more the trainer does this, the less attention the puppy pays to the trainer. (At one point the trainer even jokes to the camera, “Attention doggie deficit…” and chuckles.)

There’s nothing inherently wrong with using a kissing sound while teaching a dog to walk next to you. The problem here is with the timing. Instead of making the kissing sound as soon as the pup loses focus, the trainer does it after the puppy has already projected its energy onto something else. So the kissing sound ends up feeling like a punishment to the puppy. Puppy loses focus, finds something interesting to focus on, handler makes a kissing sound. Puppy feels, “Hey, don't distract me! I was having fun sniffing that!”

Contrast that feeling with making the kissing sound before the puppy finds something else to focus her energy on: “What can I find around here to focus my energy on?” Before puppy takes another step the trainer makes the kissing sound, and the puppy thinks, “Oh, good! I can focus my energy on you! This feels great!”

(I’ll give this trainer the benefit of the doubt and suggest that part of the problem may be she’s not just training the pup, she’s also talking to the camera as she works.)

In the end the puppy has a “generalized” heel, whose focus is very easily broken except when doing the sit while in the heel position. The reason the puppy’s ears are up and its body language is at it’s most relaxed and focused during the sit is because that’s the only time the puppy isn’t feeling a disconnect between its own body and the trainer’s. While they’re doing the heel the puppy is interested in the food, but can’t figure out how to match her body’s need for forward momentum with the movement of the trainer’s body and the food lure. It's too complicated. And the trainer isn’t using the food to help the pup solve this energy problem, she’s only using it as a lure and a reward.

To Cesar Millan the dog’s problem is “How can I be submissive to my pack leader?” which is based on a false premise. The positive trainer sees the puppy’s problem as, “How can I get a reward?” which is just as false. In each case the real problem for the doggie is, “How can I get my body to feel in-synch with my handler’s energy and momentum while we’re moving together?”

LCK

[donnieo]

I've been using the kissing sound when Jinxsie breaks out of the heel, or sometimes when she starts to move ahead I start to praise her; this usually brings her back into the group mood. If I don't catch her and she starts sniffing on the ground, I let her and not say anything till she refocusses on me on her own time, or if I want to get her going I'll say "okay!" or I'll heap praise on her to get her back into the group mood. Is this an appropriate course of action?

[Lee Charles Kelley]

Hi, Donnie,

First of all, there's a difference between an adult dog and a puppy. It's always good to keep that in mind. Secondly, yes, it's better to use the kissing sound before the dog gets focused on something else. However, whether you should let the dog do her own thing and ignore you, so to speak, would depend on the dog and the situation.

If you haven't read this blog article of mine before, here's an example where I had to get my dog to stop stalking squirrels because he would've been happy to stay in his stalking stance all day, just as long as the squirrel didn't see him first and run up the nearest. Meanwhile, I had more of a timetable about where I had to be than he did. So I had to find a way to break the spell the squirrels had over him. Chasing Squirrels

If Jinxsie is willing to stop sniffing around, etc., and change directions when you do, it doesn't sound like it's much of an issue. If she gets really absorbed with something in the environment, then it might be.

I hope this helps,

LCK

[donnieo]

There have been times where she gets totally immersed in a smell, so I give her some light shocks on the leash while praising her and that gets her going again. Then I get her to chase me and we play a bit of tug. I just try and go with the flow.

[taoofblue]

I have to agree with LCK.

"Breeds like Danes, Dobermans, Dalmatians, viszlas, boxers, greyhounds, who all have a similar chest conformation, are designed to run hard and fast for brief spurts, not to jog slowly for long stretches."

I have a 6 months old Dane pup. At this stage in her development, from all the research, and books I've read, you should definitely not be jogging them, or having them run along with a bike. Too fragile. She weighs more than I did at 14 years old! And the muscles, and bones, and joints need time to grow strong before being subjected to this grueling of a workout.

I do, however, wish that this next statement was true.

"Working on the heel the way Kevin does will use up more of a dog's energy in 5 - 10 minutes than a 1/2 hour jog will. If you add playing tug, fetch, and push-of-war, the dog's energy needs will be completely satisfied."

She eats about 7-8 cups of food a day. Because of bloat, I'm still worried about pushing with her in one session with 3-4 cups of food. I have slowly worked up to about 2 cups per sessions, then after a cool down inside, I'll feed her the other two cups. Now, I've tried to intersperse tug and fetch into our outings, but she's not really into them.

She'll tug a few times and loves it; I let her win, she prances back putting it in my hand, then she drops it and forgets not only about the toy, but the pushing. She's not into fetch either (and I've tried numerous types of balls to see what she likes, the newest being a small soccer ball). She'll fetch for one, maybe two, but then puppy brain kicks in and she's off doing whatever.

And, recently, due I think to her age, she has more energy than I can even deal with. So whether I push or not she needs to run around for awhile. I live near the beach and it's been good to go there when her attraction was ok, because you can let them off leash and not worry about management: I'd just walk along and she would orbit and check stuff out, I'd occassionally run the other way, and throw a ball, which she usually wouldn't be interested in, maybe try and get her to tug (usually no luck at beach). At first this was ok. But now, she older, and heavier (100lbs) and with all the smells, and the expansiveness, she not interested in me. And if she sees another dog, then I have no pull whatsoever.

Plus if I play chase me, then she loves it, but she will not focus on the bite toy, but will instead bite arms, shoulders, etc. This is when she's most attracted to me, but once she gets a sleeve of your coat, or sweatshirt, how do you let her win it? I'm left standing still, playing possum, not praising. Or I've tried excessive praising, and redirecting to a toy, or food, but this doesn't work either. Although her bite control is good, she still gets me good sometimes--and I'm reasonably robust, healthy, and over 6'2". I would never let her near something moving fast (a kid for example) off leash. She would clobber the poor thing. Sometimes I wonder if this will all smooth out after she goes through a heat cycle, and is able to change moods better, and is old enough to be put on a choke collar in order to really train her.

But, I think I remember someone saying something about Sang and his dogs getting out the door, and it was like 'Thanks, see ya later!'. This is her. That's what she's like at the beach, or anywhere else. Redirects work sometimes, but not always.

But this is all neither here nor there. I would like nothing more than my dog wanting to push, and tug, and play with me. I'm so frustrated because instead of being able to work for 10-20 mins on something to tire, and exercise, and work with her, I'm left having to walk on the beach for a hour if I want any peace for the next 2 when I'm at home.

If we go outside the house to play, say on a pee break, she doesn't want to play, she wants to sniff.

Anyway, those are some thoughts from an owner who would like nothing more than to be able to use all the NDT techniques to channel their dog, into 10-15 of focused heeling and pushing and tugging and just having fun. But what happens when you can't, or they won't? The only way to get some good quiet time indoors is if she gets lucky and finds a doggy friend at the beach that she gets to chase and run with for a bit.

I'm hoping this is all apart of some weird puppy process that will end soon, because the last few days have been ridiculously hard.

Enough for now. I had to vent. If you read, thanks.

Selah!

[jsharp]

Thanks for the vent! You're validating a lot of experiences that we've been having with our puppy, who's admittedly a lot younger at 9ish weeks. Still nice to hear that others are having similar issues and questions

[jojo]

Wow, I must admit I've not dealt with a puppy and have a dog that can be a little too focused on me and loves tug. But I did have trouble getting him interested in toys at first, he was just afraid of everything- which isn't your problem but some of the same things might be helpful. You say you've tried a lot of things so sorry if you've done it all before.

One thing I did was put peanut butter or gravy on things- often just sticks. I liked using sticks so that if he lost them I wouldn't feel like it was something I purchased -and me staying relaxed was key. I also found toys with squeakers were more attractive for longer and I switched things up constantly- ball, stick, frisbee, and tuggers-- mixing it up every throw and then when I knew his interest was starting to wane pulling out the Wubba (squeaker tug toy) that would always get his interest re-perked. Now all the toys are in pairs, I wish I had known to use two of the same toy sooner.

The other thing was to always try and quit before the dog was bored- not easy when you want to get all their energy out with fetch-tug, but always try and leave the dog wanting more. So, doing short quick sessions of just one or two tosses, and also sometimes just picking up the toy, talking about what fun it would be, waving it around and than when he started to show interest putting it back on the shelf, or just bouncing a tennis ball in the house but not tossing it for him.

We now have a fence and gate, I'll chuck things past the fence when the gate is closed and let him whine by the fence while I come up to open it- this has helped his fetch drive a lot, at first he was just like, "oh, I can't get that," and would walk away to sniff the yard, but I'd ask excitedly for it and offer a toy of higher value for exchange. Now he'll even push the gate with his head, it used to freak him out to have doors or anything rub against him when he went through so this is big for us. Not everyone has a gate, but if you do.

One thing everyone knows but we all need reminders is to be patient. I remember thinking things will never get better, but then my boyfriend would visit (he lives in another state) and notice how much more enthusiastic Remy was about fetching, the progress was slow and erratic, and I wouldn't see it and get discouraged. Having an outside objective judge of his progress really helped me not give up.

and another energy burner we use is hiding his meals. At first it had to be real easy, like almost in front of him, or he would give up and it didn't burn much energy. But now at dinner I hide his food as best I can and he can be busy for 30 minutes searching for it, it took a long time for him to learn to keep searching and not give up, unfortunately he now knows all the good places I hide it and it doesn't take him as long to find it, but for a few months it was helpful.

And the stalking dog game, I can't find that here on naturaldogblog or I'd link to it, I thought it used to be here.