Liability Lou

[Chris]

Originally Posted by rudy

Something clicked in Lou's brain - I'm not sure what it was. But I like it. I'm going to do more hiking trips with him.

I am so pleased for you and Lou, it's great news. I'm sure you'll both enjoy the hiking trips so much more from now on. Keep up the good work

[rudy]

It is obvious that he needs to bite. He is desperate to bite. Bark, Chase and Bite is his mojo.

So WHY CAN'T I GET HIM TO PLAY TUG???

He likes to play. He demonstrated with Basil that he likes to tug and choses to tug. He used to be a demon fetcher. I used to be able to get him to tug with me easily if we were inside...what happened?

After reading/posting about this on on LCK's blog, I followed a link to a link to a link and found myself here: leerburg.com/drives.htm. It's about shutzhund/police dogs and this line jumped out at me: "One thing to remember about prey drive is that it is extinguished or is diminished as the dog gets tired. In other words, an exhausted dog does not have much interest in playing tug. "

Duh. I was wondering why when I introduced pushing training - chase, push, sit/down, come, heel, bark, push - he stopped being the fetch machine and tug. He used to tug on pant legs, sleeves etc. He also started actually sleeping ... like a normal dog does.

The thing is, I play/train with Lou for both meals, 10-15 minutes twice a day. And then I take him with me when I work out Rudy - two 30 min jog/speed walks (dogs are at a trot) (about 5 miles a day) 5 days a week, 90 min hike w/ backpack once a week, and some fetching/sprint work. This is a LOT of exercise.

Rudy spent a month in orthopedic rehab 3 1/2 years ago for very severe hip dysplasia. A genius vet, using only specific exercises, fixed Rudy's hips so that he has beautiful muscle mass, perfect gait and no pain - and no surgery. To maintain this we have to do all these exercises every day... I've felt bad, ie guilty, about Rudy's hips - if I had kept up his muscle mass he might not have suffered. I always walked Rudy about 2 hours a day off leash - we never went very fast but I thought we made up for it in duration. But it wasn't enough to keep up the muscles. Fear of losing the muscle mass, fear of Rudy being in pain or worse, losing him to untreatable pain, has been a major motivation for me in keeping up these exercises.

I have vowed to not let Lou go down the same path that Rudy did if I can help it. Lou has really well muscled hips. He is also very young. The genius vet examined Lou and said he looks great. Yet, I am afraid to NOT do all these exercises with Lou. And I hate leaving him behind since he loves to go on our runs. And yet, he REALLY REALLY needs to learn to bite/tug a toy. He is a major bite risk to humans and he won't be comfy in his own skin/fur until we figure this out.

It is obvious that he can't do it all. The BIG triggers for Lou (neighbors kids on bikes) are a big enough attraction/threat to adrenalize him to overcome his tiredness to chase/bite. But he is too physically tired to play tug/fetch with me. On the other hand, it is very nice to have a dog who sleeps at night and naps during the day...

So what do I do? Where is the compromise? How much exercise does he really need?

Any thoughts?

[Sang]

I would say first that you need to work on releasing yourself from the feelings of guilt you have about Rudy and what happened in the past, so that you can stop projecting that onto Lou. The guilt and your self judgement of what happened with Rudy is influencing how you work with Lou. Because as you pointed out, after those long runs and outings with you and Rudy, Lou doesn't have the energy to invest into tug anymore.

So I would keep on doing what you're doing with Rudy, but just leave Lou at home. Then, when you get back, take Lou out for his work, which would be the pushing, with the bite work and games of tug/fetch tug, and ultimately push of war once you get there. You really want him to store that energy up so that you have access to it when it matters most, which for now is when you are working with him. Until he learns what to do with ALL his energy at high levels of stimulation with you, then he won't learn what to do with it in those situation when you really need him to give it to you instead of downloading it onto another dog, or a person, or whatever else. And the only way to do that is to let him store it up, by not engaging in things like running with you. What this is doing is draining just enough energy to keep him right below boiling. But just add a little heat, and the pot will boil over.

So don't feel guilty about leaving Lou at home while you take Rudy out for his runs. Once you can stop judging yourself for what happened to Rudy, and let go of that guilt, things will already start to improve. Then it will just be a matter of doing the physical work and exercises to get Lou over the hump. Right now he feels that he needs to be the surrogate for your guilt, and that is his purpose. But once he learns that he no longer needs to fill that role, and then you show him what the REAL purpose of the group is, which is to bite what you want him to bite, things will start to shift.

I hope that helps

[rudy]

"What this is doing is draining just enough energy to keep him right below boiling. But just add a little heat, and the pot will boil over."

You are exactly right Sang! That is exactly what the problem was! That is a great metaphor for Lou in general

You are right about me needing to let go of the guilt and judgement too. My genius vet could tell it was bothering me, this was years ago, so he said to me that I should consider Rudy's hip problem a blessing because the result of Rudy's treatment and ongoing exercise is that Rudy is now healthier and stronger than most dogs his age who don't have hip issues and I have a fitness plan to keep him physically strong. Rudy's momentary suffering lead to a happier healthier and maybe longer life. And, executing this plan day in and day out has really bonded us. THAT is what I will concentrate on and be thankful for.

I've stopped running Lou. I tie him securely to a tree in the fairway behind the house and Rudy and I jog up and down the fairway. Lou can enjoy a few minutes of being outside and he gets teased and ramped up a little by watching us run back and forth without him. Man that dog can bark!

Once or twice he has been raring to go when it was his turn to play... but usually I have to tease him or annoy him, almost tick him off, by playfully swatting his ears or tail, nudge his body and swat him with the toy until he is ready to play. Last night he got sooo intense he was jumping/flying at me trying to get it. He'd jump and I'd back away and push him off and tell him good boy - it seemed to ramp him up. He seems to enjoy rough-house style playing. After a few of those I'd do the regular push and then let him have the toy and tug for it. We actually played push/fetch tug!!!! Woohooo!

I had to try out a few different toys... what works is tennis balls tied into socks. I can throw the ball and then tug on the sock part.

So far I am ending the fetch tug after about 5-6 minutes before he can lose interest. I can tell that his bite is getting stronger just over the last few days.

He won't play fetch/tug yet if I have food on me or even food nearby so I have divided up his play/work sessions. We play 15 min of push/on the box/speak/heel for food first. Then I run Rudy and Lou watches. Then we do fetch/tug.

My challenge will be to match his physical energy and intensity.

[Sang]

Sounds like you're getting into the swing of things and you've got a good thing going now. Keep up the great work!

[rudy]

Thanks! Yes he is tugging, fetching, push-tug.

But now he's also raiding the pantry, counter surfing AND today he peed on a plant inside the house - it wasn't a few drops, he peed. He hasn't done that since the first 2 weeks he lived here!

Closer supervision and/or crate time is how I will manage this new stuff. But I am curious to know if something else is going on with him.

[Sang]

Ha! Yep, that stuff is actually really good. It means you're bringing him back to his puppyhood, and his puppy mind, and that he's starting to open up again.

Which of course means, as you pointed out, he'll need more monitoring and crate time, just like a puppy.

Good stuff!