tug lying on the floor

[rudy]

My dog, Lou, likes to play with toys - the plush squeaky kind. He also like fetch. He's got a remarkable prey/chase drive. And he is not shy about biting... (lunging, deep throated barking, attacking...) He NEEDS to bite.

He likes to play tug with me but that game isn't very intense. The play growling starts immediately and he doesn't REALLY pull back. He seems to like me dragging him around by the toy - but I have to be careful or he'll let go of his end I'm praising him - telling him to bite it and get it and pull!

I know he's got the intensity in him to play harder. In fact, after more than a minute or two he wants to play from his belly, lying on the ground. Sometimes his muzzle is on the ground too - but his is still wanting to play. Occasionally he'll even roll over and want to play tug on his back. It's rather cute He kicks my hand the the toy with his back legs.

I've tried playing from my hands and knees. I've tried grabbing a toy and taking off with it so he'll chase me. Still the same low energy game.

Also, he really won't play tug outside. He'll chase me. He'll fetch. But he won't really tug. He is on mid-alert all the time we're outside so keeping his focus right now requires food.

Will this resolve as time goes by? Is there something I can do to get him more seriously engaged?

We've also just started pushing. He LOVES to jump on me lunging for the food, but the push from the ground is still something we're learning.

Thanks so much

[jojo]

It's cool how different dogs are. My Remy is tug obsessed, can't get enough and is totally fierce about it. Building up his desire to push has been slow progress with lots of set backs everytime I get too pushy, and it's hard, although he is improving. Pushing has not come natural to either of us.

Remy wouldn't play with toys when I first adopted him though. While you'll probably get better advice from others. keeping games short, so you always leave the dog wanting more helps their desire to play grow. So playing for one minute several times instead of one 5 minute session. And just showing interest in the tug toy but not giving access, so pick it up and talk to it, "We're gonna tug tough," tease the dog briefly and put it back on the shelf. The next time play. Helped Remy develop more toy drive. Doe your dog like to fetch? Rewarding tug by throwing the toy could help build drive for the tug if he does.

[Sang]

Hey Rudy, the growling to me sounds like Lou getting overloaded, so I would actually back off from playing tug for a while until you can get a really strong, consistent push for food from him. Once he can do that, he'll feel much more comfortable expressing his energy and channeling it into you, which will then, in time, make him more open to playing tug with you in a more committed way.

So I would focus more on the push for now, and then worry about the tug later.

Once he does get a strong push, then you can start incorporating some tug and bitework in between pushing.

Hope that helps

[Valerie]

Eka can hold on if it's one of the boys toys she's not supposed to have (separate issue I just recently got some great crating advice from Kevin on), but tug outside is hit and miss as far as how engaged she will be. Which is better than it was before as it was more miss than hit.

I've just tried to back off and go as 'slow' as possible. I concentrate hard on making sure she wins and sometimes that means I just let her grab it out of my hand. Sometimes I get more into it than she is and forget and she doesn't win. We are probably about 90/10 for her winning average.

My training theme seems to be backing off, and then backing off some more in order to go forward. It seems you can't go too slow.

[Sang]

You got it Val. Just take it slow and easy. Remember, there's no rush. We humans are always trying to jump ahead, but the thing to keep in mind, and this was something I had to learn as well, was that we're on the dog's schedule, not the other way around. They'll give you what they're ready to give you, so just take what they can give you. It's better to err on the side of caution than push too hard too fast.

Before I finally moved into NDT, I decided that I had no idea what I was doing, so instead I decided to just stop doing anything that was "training" related, and also stopped trying to "correct" my dogs' behaviors as well. And what a difference it made in their overall demeanor and our relationship. Which of course was only enhanced by using NDT.

But trust me. Follow the process, and trust in it. You will start to see shifts. And some of them will be really profound and seem to come out of the blue. If you don't see immediate progress that's ok. Progress WILL come. It's just a matter of time.

[rudy]

It is extremely tough to stay on Lou's schedule - of course rushing it is self defeating so I really have no choice. He is an amazing and loving dog - but he is also a real threat to public safety. Give the freedom, he would bite (grab and tug pant legs!) every person who walked in my house or by my house, by my car, etc. It is hard to not feel a sense of urgency: walkers and bikers, both neighbors have little kids, house backs up to a golf course... chances to bite abound.

I have hesitated to call him aggressive because he doesn't have an aggressive temperment. He likes people and wants to make friends. But the poor little guy gets overwhelmed so easily. Makes me wonder what his life looked like before he found me...

I have fitted him with a basket muzzle so he can do lure coursing safely. I very slowly acclimated him to wearing it and then started taking him to a park to run around with it on - usually there's no one at this park. Lou was on a long leash wearing the muzzle and I saw a friend of mine and his calm dogs about 50 yards ahead. I called out to my friend that Lou has "biting issues" but is wearing a basket muzzle - can I watch their interaction from afar? He's had a dog like this so he was up for it. His dogs trotted up to say hi to us - Lou likes dogs. Lou then trotted up to this guy with his cocker-butt all waggy and leaned into his legs inviting a pet. My friend reached down and petted Lou for a second. No problem. He squatted and petted Lou... no visable problem but not sure if there was growling (I was still 30 yards off). But when the guy stood up Lou BARKED and jumped to bite his arm and then jumped again at his face! If he didn't have the muzzle on I wouldn't have let this interaction occur at all. And if he had been on a 6ft leash he would have BARKED and pulled/lunged within about 30 ft of him - so I am part of the problem.

I will back off the tug some. Yesterday he started pushing into my hand hard enough to get front legs off the ground -so that's all good news! I would love for him to air out all of his distress so he could relax into being the dog that he really is.

[BrownieNJoyce]

Hi. Just wanted to say that your dedication will make all the difference. I am working hard and also enjoying learning/practicing NDT with Brownie. It's taking time but what else is there to do? (in relationship to doggie, that is) I used to have a dog named Red that got very "aggressive" with other dogs when on a leash and a little less so if off-leash regardless of status of other dog. I initially walked him with a muzzle which was a good thing when he took off after a porcupine once. Prevented him from getting quills in his mouth! Anyway, I wish I had known about NDT way back then but I did hire a dog trainer who had an approach that was more like NDT than positive reinforcement or dominance training so he did improve. I've wondered whether she read Kevin Behan and developed her method as best she could without direct mentoring. Red was a great dog and I couldn't fault him for his behaviors knowing that it was something in his background or the way he was trained or conditioned that got him there. So we avoided other dogs except for friends' dogs that were willing to go through the initial scary-sounding grizzly-looking tussels. I called it the teddy-bear/grizzly-bear syndrome since in the house with people he seemed very relaxed, never barked, was not visibly triggered by anything except bad thunderstorms.

My current dog, Brownie is energized by other dogs and appears a bit anxious when the distance between them lessens so we have been avoiding for the almost 3 months we've had him. But he is fine with people and much less energized by other dogs than he is by cats and squirrels which take him from 0 to 60 in a millisecond. So I'm practicing NDT and looking forward to walking together someday rather than him always being ahead of me and at least half the time tending to pull. Actually we've made a lot of progress in this area which I'm about to post about and pose some questions. Hope you keep pushing with your dog and keep posting on the forum.

[BrownieNJoyce]

Originally Posted by Valerie

My training theme seems to be backing off, and then backing off some more in order to go forward. It seems you can't go too slow.

Valerie, I've learned a lot from your previous posts, so I'm glad to read what's current for you with Eka and inspired by your relaxation about giving the process time.

Update on Brownie: he isn't tugging at all yet. The closest we've gotten is me just touching whatever I can get him to chomp on which is primarily his marrow bone when he gets one. I tried other approaches but he was giving up so easily. So instead I'm trying something recommended by Neil which I have decided to call "play therapy". Sorry I don't know how to link to the post his instructions are in, but he basically suggested being prey-like and galloping with treats in hand to get Brownie to chase me, then I drop to floor and roll onto my back and toss him a treat and then pop up, run to another room and repeat, etc. It's been fun and Brownie's into it. It's helping me realize that I was taking this too seriously (which Neil appropriately pointed out by asking how much spontaneity and play did I have in my life). I realized that when I've been trying to get (rather than eliciting or inviting) Brownie to tug I've been intent/intense/tense and not that playful because I've had an agenda. So I'll keep up the goofy play therapy and we'll see how it changes me over time

[BrownieNJoyce]

Originally Posted by rudy

I would love for him to air out all of his distress so he could relax into being the dog that he really is.

I love how you said this! My sentiments about my dog also.