Chasing/possibly killing fowl

[Drea]

So today Tucker and I went up to visit a friend who lives on many acres surrounded by National Forest. Her dog frequents my kennel and he and Tucker are BFF (best friends forever). She also has chickens, turkeys, and a lone Guinnea Hen roaming free around her property. She asked me how Tucker would do around them and the other two times he's been around chickens and ducks he's left them alone. But no sooner had we arrived, he caught a turkey in his mouth. Now I'm not sure if he was going to kill it, but I didn't give him a chance. The turkey survived, but I literally had to pry it from Tucker's mouth. He was on-leash for the next several hours.

Later, we went for a ride away from the fowl, and he ran around with Otto (Lab), saw horses up close, rolled in their poop, ate some, and generally had fun. Back at the house, he escaped out the door when we were distracted (off-leash in the house as I was doing some computer repair) and chased another turkey onto the roof of Sue's car. Then when I was trying to put him back on leash, he ran into the turkey/chicken yard, and into their coop and proceeded to chase and put a chicken in his mouth. I pried the lid off the coop to get his collar, cutting my hand in the process, and Sue came and opened the door to help me get him out. She thought the chicken was dead, but as soon as she picked it up, it fluttered away.

So, not only do I want to vent a little, I also am interested to know if this behavior can be "unlearned" or have we crossed the point of no return. Tucker is mostly Anatolian Shepherd (bred for guarding flocks of livestock), and just over two years old. I must admit that I've not been pushing with him for about a week, but plan to start back up tomorrow morning. I also didn't (purposely) feed him dinner tonight so that he'll be nice and hungry tomorrow.

[Sang]

Well, it's going to be harder now that he's gotten a taste of the "real thing", but it's still solvable. First step is to do what you're already planning on doing, which is to start pushing with him tomorrow.

If he has a good strong push already, then take him out on leash to where he can see the chickens. Get him close enough to where he starts getting energized by them, but don't take him any closer than that. Once he starts expressing his energy to them, just kind of let him do his thing on leash. He'll likely pull and lunge, maybe bark and whine and all that stuff. Start praising him and tell him "Get those chickens Tucker. Go get 'em", or something like that. He can't do this forever. There will be a moment, however brief it is, where he'll start to figure out that all this lunging and stuff is wasting energy. That's the moment you want to get him to push with you.

If he's lunging and pulling on the leash to get to the chickens and he gets to that point where he pauses for a moment, but he's still locked on the chickens, go ahead and muscle him around a bit. Sweep his feet, push his back end around, etc....that should get him to redirect his attention on to you, at which time you should be able to get a good push out of him.

This won't solve the problem right away, but it will start to get you on the path to channeling the charge he now has towards the chickens and turkeys back into you. But like I said, since he's had a taste of the real thing, it won't be as easy as if he hadn't gotten them in his mouth to begin with. It will just take longer to override the imprint that's now in place. But you'll get there.

Good luck

[Lee Charles Kelley]

I think Sang's advice is right on the money.

However, it's important when Tucker is lunging that you don't engage in a tug-of-war with him and the leash. In other words, let him do his thing (as Sang suggested), but don't correct him or put any resistance into the situation other than what he's doing to himself by lunging, etc.

It's also important to not to get too close to the distracting element: i.e., fowl.

LCK

[neilsattin]

Drea,

You probably figured out that what Sang is describing is the "redirection" work on DVD #1. Substitute "chicken" for "other dog" and you're all set.

Also, it isn't a hard/fast rule that once a dog has gotten a "taste" that it will be harder to overcome the issue. In fact, it could even be easier. Here's why:

Your dog will have experienced two things, first

• Free flow of emotional energy around those birds

and second

• the DISsatisfaction of actually getting one of them

It's that dissatisfaction that actually inspires more hunting. When Tucker caught a bird, it didn't actually release all of the energy that had been stirred up. So he had more to offload, thus went looking for more birds to chase/etc.

So the experience will mean that there's more of a charge within Tucker during these situations - which will also increase his satisfaction if you push/play tug/etc. with him as a way to release the energy of these encounters.

Playing/interacting with you will be MUCH more satisfying for Tucker, enabling him to unload even more energy than catching a bird ever could.

I've seen cat-dogs, bird-dogs, squirrel-dogs, kid-dogs - all come around. So no, don't worry. Just be prepared!

[Drea]

Thanks for the timely replies. I wish we lived closer to chickens (on one hand), but am glad we don't (on the other). I realized two things from this encounter: I've not taken the time to engage (play or otherwise) with Tucker over the last week or so (he's been doing a lot of playing with other dogs), and we've not been doing any pushing.

I let him fast through dinner and he was pretty good for pushing this morning. I'm still building his "on the box" box, and just need to cut the wood for the top. Currently we are using a picnic table as our box but I worry about the stress climbing up and down puts on his injured front leg (probably worrying about nothing). I'm going to push for dinner, too, as often as I have time.

I have another friend who lives closer who has chickens and ask her if she'll let me do some training with Tucker on her property. She may not, but it never hurts to ask.

[Valerie]

So why would actually biting the prey be dissatisfying?

Is that in general or specific to this situation since she didn't get to eat it i.e. get it into her tummy/big brain or because the prey was small and not a large creature that required a group to take it down?

Maybe since my dog doesn't quite find pushing the best thing in her universe yet (except during fireworks) I have trouble seeing her choose it over something she actually caught.

[Margot]

I may be wrong but I think its a sort of 'been there done that' thing.

Butters was always hyped about hares. One day he chased one for around 3 km, did not catch it, and came back. Since then he demonstrates an interest but he is very easy to get back into the flow of our walk from even a running hare. I am way more interesting than a hare he cannot catch anyway.

Probably because the chase did not have a satifsfying conclusion, he did not feel a need to do it again? Maybe if he had managed to catch the hare (that hare was much bigger than Butters) it would have been different.

Eating the chicken is not a part of the hunting sequence that dogs do anymore. Biting the chicken does not satisfy nearly as much as eating it would have had she been motivated to do that, so it is not serious competition. She is not choosing pushing, you increased your attractiveness through pushing, so she is choosing you over the chicken. The chicken never resolved her energy anyway, but you do.


Have to say tho that the sight of Butters tearing over the fields after that hare was spectacular. He nearly flew. And as I stood wondering if I should go to the forest to see if I could find him, he was back by my side.

[Drea]

I finally finished my box, and now do training with Tucker closer and closer to the fence where he runs back and forth with the menace neighbor dog. This morning, our other neighbor's dogs (Yorkies) barked their alert bark that Buddy (the menace) was in their yard while Tucker and I were doing box training. Tucker went into alert mode and jumped off the box but I was able to call him back to the box (thank goodness he had the long line on) and we continued with breakfast and pushing. If I can continue in this vein, I'm hoping that I will become more interesting than Buddy. If I can become more interesting than Buddy, those chickens/turkeys will be a piece of cake.

[Sang]

Originally Posted by Drea

I finally finished my box, and now do training with Tucker closer and closer to the fence where he runs back and forth with the menace neighbor dog. This morning, our other neighbor's dogs (Yorkies) barked their alert bark that Buddy (the menace) was in their yard while Tucker and I were doing box training. Tucker went into alert mode and jumped off the box but I was able to call him back to the box (thank goodness he had the long line on) and we continued with breakfast and pushing. If I can continue in this vein, I'm hoping that I will become more interesting than Buddy. If I can become more interesting than Buddy, those chickens/turkeys will be a piece of cake.

Keep up the great work. You're right that if you can attract all his energy when Buddy is nearby, then the chickens won't matter. It's all just energy. If you can hold Tucker's attraction while the energy is at its highest expression, then it won't matter if you run across chickens, rabbits, squirrels, deer, etc.....those things will just trigger the feeling of attraction to you.

Keep it up

[Drea]

This morning I moved Tucker's box into the kennel's grassy yard (one fence borders Buddy the neighbor menace's yard, but there is now a cedar picket fence where there used to be just a wire fence). Tucker had the long line on and Buddy and his dog sib, a Chiweenie - Dachsund/Chihuahua mix, also a terror - were in their own yard on the other side of the fence. Tucker did a really good job at staying on the box for the first five minutes or so, but Buddy and Baby's taunting proved too much. Even for hot dogs.

My questions are: should I move back to the main yard (farther away from Buddy and Baby) or should I continue to reinforce staying on the box and pushing even with Buddy close by and barking?