what is going on?

[litehorse]

I have five dogs-aussie mix(8 yrs. old), lab/rott mix (5 yrs. old), boykin spaniel (2yrs.old), pittweiler (2 yrs. old), min pin (4 yrs. old). The lab/rott, Boss, is my son's dog. He has been in and out, staying with my son at times, but is now back home on a permanent basis. He was raised here. Anyway, there have been a few fights between Boss and the aussie mix, Shiloh. The first was about three years ago. Then another last year. Earlier this year another. Now Boss has been with us since June and everything was really great for a while, but just in the last 2 weeks there have been 3 attacks and I'm at the point that I have no trust in Boss at all around Shiloh. I cannot tell anything that Shiloh does to provoke. He is just there and Boss attacks, viciously. There does not seem to be anything different from when they were all getting along so well. I am so confused!!

[Sang]

These kinds of situations are always challenging to diagnosis without knowing more about the situation and not being able to see things in person. Is there anything else you can share at all about the dynamic between Boss and Shiloh? You said that Boss grew up in your household but has been in and out with your son. Did Shiloh ever pick on him or “school” him when he was still a pup? What is your relationship with Shiloh? Since he is the oldest, would you say that, of all the dogs, he is the closest to you? Would you say Boss is more your son’s dog? And forgive me if I’m probing too much, but how is your relationship with your son?

[litehorse]

Shiloh has difficulty relating to anybody. He growls when someone, even me,
pets him when he is inside. The dog I had when I first brought Shiloh home
also had issues with him. He is a very sweet dog. He does not make
aggressive moves towards any of the other dogs at home. If anyone or other
dog that Shiloh does not know he gets a little pushy at those times. Shiloh
is my dog if he is anybody's.
Shiloh has never picked on anyone, Boss or any of the other dogs.My son and
I have a good relationship. He is in jail right now due to drugs. Boss
always treated Seth the same way he is treating me now. He would never
leave his side, and now Boss never wants to leave me.

[Sang]

Are Shiloh and Boss both similar or more opposites in their demeanors? Did the dog you had when you first brought Shiloh home ever pick on Shiloh?

[litehorse]

Shiloh has always been a little more of a loner than the other dogs, other than that Boss and Shiloh are fairly similar in their demeanors. They both love to chase squirrels up the trees. Boss likes to fetch, but Shiloh won't have anything to do with that activity. Chase, the dog I had when Shiloh first came to live with me, would snap at him on occassion. It never turned into a full blown fight with her. Shiloh avoids crossing Boss' path as much as possible.

[Sang]

How old was Shiloh when Chase first started snapping at him? Does Shiloh like to play at all? You mentioned that Boss likes to play fetch, but Shiloh doesn’t. Are there any other games Shiloh likes to play?

Regardless of what put it in him, Shiloh is holding a lot of “charge” and stress, and needs to release it. The fact that he growls a bit when you or someone else pets him inside is a sign of that. Once a dog has a charge of underlying fear or tension in them, then every experience they have only piles on top of it. So if Shiloh had a “negative” experience when he was young that put that charge of fear in him, and it doesn’t have to be something big that did it, then he’s been carrying that around for years without being able to resolve it. It could have been something as simple as getting picked on by his littermates, though I can’t say.

I don’t know how much you’ve read on this forum or how deep you’ve gotten into the NDT stuff, so forgive me if I get into stuff you may already know. A dog doesn’t see or feel himself as separate from his environment or those around him. What you feel, he feels. What Shiloh feels, Boss feels. So if Shiloh is experiencing this underlying state of tension and stress, then when Boss comes around he feels it too. But Boss doesn’t feel it as a separate feeling outside of himself. He doesn’t feel it as Shiloh’s feeling. He feels it as his own, and wants to get rid of it. And the only way to get rid of it is to attack it, and go at the thing/dog/person which Boss gives credit to for that feeling, which in this case is Shiloh. And if Boss is a direct dog, in that he goes after things he wants, then he won’t have a problem just going at Shiloh. So it may seem like Shiloh is doing nothing to provoke it, and he really isn’t. At least not intentionally. He’s just emotionally stuck and needs to get the energy moving and flowing so that he can vibe at the right frequency to sync up with Boss. Once Shiloh can get his energy moving and get rid of all that underlying tension, then Boss won’t feel it anymore and he won’t feel the need to attack that feeling.

So the fights that have happened in the past were few and far between, but now that they’re living together it’s likely going to happen more and more. Since Shiloh is holding this charge, he’s always walking around with a certain level of tension. Once he reaches a critical point, Boss goes at him, they fight a bit, it releases some of that tension, and then things settle down for a while. Until Shiloh’s tension builds back up to that level again, at which point they’ll fight again, release some of that tension, and then seem fine again for a while. Until they both know how to REALLY resolve that tension, this will just keep going on and on and on and on. Because right now it’s the only way they know to release stored up tension, so it actually feels good to them to do it, even though it doesn’t look that way. Which is why they’ll continue to do it, since it works.

Have you tried the pushing exercise yet with Shiloh? If not, definitely get him going on it. It’s going to help reduce the tension he’s carrying around dramatically. If you can also get him to play tug with you, that’s also going to help as well. Just make sure you always let him win, and praise him for winning. I can get into why both of these things are good, but I’ll just assume you’ve been through Neil’s site enough to have read why it’s good to do both of those things. And always make sure to only do these exercises outside.

Once you teach Shiloh, and eventually Boss, to make REAL prey with you, through the pushing and the tug, they won’t feel the need or urge to take it out on each other.

I hope that helps. Let me know if that makes sense.

[litehorse]

A lot of what you say does make sense. I have felt all along that Shiloh just can't get past whatever happened to him before he came to live with me. He was on the side of the road and did not come directly up to me. I had to entice him with food to get into the truck. I had to house break him. He was about 7 months old. He began growling from the beginning. It's not a vicious sounding growl unless he is pushed, usually it is a warning kind of growl. The thing I don't understand based on what you were saying is that Shiloh is very unhappy with the situation. He avoids crossing Boss' path - and acts cowed most of the time right now. Shiloh has never liked to play although there have been a couple of times that he let loose a little bit and bounced around and acted playful. He really seemed to be happy when Chase died and Boss was still with my son. He gets along well with the other dogs, a 2 1/2 year old Boykin spaniel female, a 2 1/2 year old Pittweiler, and a 4 year old Min Pin. Yes, I will investigate the pushing with Shiloh. I think I need to take him by himself and play with him.

[Sang]

His history is starting to become clearer. I’m sure whatever situation he was in he probably got “loaded up” with stress, and has been holding on to that ever since.

Right now Shiloh is “stuck”. So he is, as you said, unhappy with it all. It’s not that he wants to feel this way. He doesn’t. But since he has no way to resolve his feeling of being stuck, and since he is uncomfortable with expressing his discomfort himself, his opportunity comes when Boss steps in and essentially forces him into a position to get that stuck energy moving. So in that moment, when they are fighting, at least energy is moving, even though it’s in a very dysfunctional, undesirable way. So it’s not that he wants to get into a fight, but once the fight happens, a little bit of that stuck energy gets dislodged. But yes, as you said, predominantly Shiloh would be unhappy overall.

It sounds like Boss is just expressing and showing to you that Shiloh needs your help to get him unstuck. Often when it comes to our dogs, as well as ourselves, we’ll just accept things as they are until something happens that forces us to change. If Boss had not come back to live with you, would you have addressed Shiloh’s insecurity and unhappiness or would you have just accepted it as the way he is? You don’t have to answer that, but it’s something to think about. And if that is the case, then is there anything in your own life that needs to be expressed that you are holding back? Again, you don’t have to answer, but just something else to consider as well, since more often than not the situations with our dogs just reflect something going on inside ourselves, or within our relationships, etc…..I know that my own dogs have helped me see just how much I needed to express in my own life. I myself have 2 dogs that used to get into some fairly vicious fights. To make a long story short, since doing NDT along with finally confronting and dealing with the things in my own life, those fights don’t happen anymore. In fact, those 2 dogs now play together, and I have a very peaceful, relaxed household.

So yeah, first thing's first. Definitely spend some time with Shiloh individually playing. Getting him to express himself is going to help him tremendously.

Good luck.

[litehorse]

thank you for all the information - i will be reading about NDT and putting those things into action - looking forward to some peace