Need to stop my fox hound/terrier nipping/holding neck skin

[velo flowers]

Hi All,
Just joined a few minutes ago after looking through this site and was very impressed with not only Neil's advice and input but also the members help.

I have a 16 month old (35 lb.) fox hound/terrier mix named Jesse. He is wonderful. Loves people, other dogs and just has a great personality. He's very smart and a real blessing. We are in NYC and he was a rescue from North Carolina.

The only problem we have is whenever he is off leash in a dog run usually after playing for 10 -15 minutes his playing with other dogs eventually evolves into him nipping at and sometimes holding on to a dogs neck skin. There are times when the other dog does it right back and then they both seem to have a great time taking turns being the aggressor and the submissive. Other times Jesse will do this with dogs that don't like to play this way.
I was told this is normal dog play BUT if the other dog yelps and is being submissive and Jesse does not stop then his nipping needs to be stopped permanently. This has happened a few times and its a big concern of mine. I am very concerned about other peoples dogs and don't want Jesse to get a reputation for it. When it happens it just looks somewhat rough and I understand an owners concern. sometimes the other dog that is passive comes back for more after they have been seperated.
While I want to stop this behavior I don't want to diminish or compromise Jesse's spirit and energy.
I met a guy who had the same problem with his dog and he stopped it by holding the muscle on the side of the neck as soon as he saw his dog nip he quietly said the word "enough" to his dog. He said he used "enough" because it was very different word from all other commands and only used it for this behavior. He said it eventually worked but he felt it also caused the dog to become more passive when playing and in general. In a way it changed his dogs personality.
I read where Neil or somebody here wrote about complimenting aggressing behavior as a tool. I don't know how to use it in our case or if its the best way to go.
We are lucky that Jesse loves Tug playing and while I'm probably going to stop going to dog runs because they're dangerous I still want to eliminate this
in the best way.

Thanks for any help

[rudy]

Hi velo

Have you checked out Neils' The Perfect Puppy Plan? Your dog is technically still a pup so the info will probably be useful.

Is your dog comfortable flipping sides? One time he gets to chase and then it flips and he is the one being chased?

[velo flowers]

Yes Rudy, Jesse is very comfortable with switching sides. There are many times a small pack of 3-4 dogs will chase him around the dog run. He will then do laps inside the run with a big smile and after 2-3 laps will sit under a bench. There are times when if he is surrounded by 2-4 dogs and they are playing he still plays well but shows his teeth if the dogs get to rambunctious. Then the play continues. He also lays on his back as if to invite other dogs to take turns as the dominant. My wife gets concerned about him showing his teeth but that has never resulted in any problem with other dogs.
He also chases other dogs in the run by himself and also with a small size pack.
Often the neck stuff evolves if a dog that is being chased gets submissive. Jesse then jumps into the fray. The other dog is often on its back and the nipping at the neck starts as part of the playing. He never bites but it doesn't look good.

I will for sure read Neils 'Perfect Puppy Plan'. Thanks for mentioning it.

[Sang]

Hey Velo, welcome to the fun.

Originally Posted by velo flowers

Hi All,
He said it eventually worked but he felt it also caused the dog to become more passive when playing and in general. In a way it changed his dogs personality.

Yes, I'm sure that technique "worked", but as you stated, it would definitely have the undesired effect of making the dog much more passive. Essentially, he's learned that when he is expressing his "dogness" at its deepest level, he gets into trouble. His owner interrupts his good feelings, and he starts to experience the "owner acting strangely" syndrome, since in his world, it makes no sense at all to have this person stop him from engaging in his dog fun. So essentially he's shutting down and holding back. So the behavior may have been subverted, but there is a price to pay, because now that this dog is holding back energy, it's storing up and will likely manifest itself in other dysfunctional behaviors, unless the owner gives him the chance to express it in healthy ways.

So Jesse is out there having all this fun with the other dogs, but the game reaches a point where the energy starts getting really high, so he starts to nip at the other dogs, because what he, and any other dog, really wants to do is bite things. Which isn’t a bad thing. But as you stated, other dog owners might not be comfortable with this. So the goal will be that you become the outlet for the energy that he still needs to unload, that he can’t unload with the other dogs. The way to do that is to attract his energy in places outside the dog park, by pushing for his meals and playing games like tug, always letting him win the game. This will do 2 things. First, it will increase his emotional threshold so that he won’t feel as much of a need to nip at the other dogs, and second it will increase his attraction to you so that if he starts to nip at other dogs, you can call him away to bite a toy instead of the other dogs, and that will feel just as good to him, if not better, than nipping at the other dogs. The nipping is a sublimated desire to bite, and right now he’s showing good bite inhibition with his dog pals, but he’s not getting to fully express that desire with them. By letting him bite a toy as hard as he can with you, you’re giving him the outlet to express that desire in a safe way. And since you become the source of that feeling of gratification, you increase your bond and connection to him. It may sound strange to think that he could actually have more fun with you than with other dogs, but if you can attract the deeper levels of energy from Jesse that he can’t express with other dogs, then he’ll enjoy playing with you WAY more than other dogs. That doesn’t mean he won’t enjoy playing with other dogs, but don’t be surprised once you start pushing and playing tug with him, if he becomes more interested in you than anything else. And I certainly don’t think that’s a bad thing.

So to recap, start pushing with him outside for his meals to increase his attraction to you. Then also start playing tug with him outside, always letting him win, and praising him enthusiastically for winning.

And if you want personal guidance with any of this, Lee Charles Kelley lives in NYC and has been doing NDT for a LONG time. Definitely worth hooking up with him if you want more hands on guidance and direction.

Lee Charles Kelley, "Changing the World, One Dog at a Time"

Hope that helps.

[velo flowers]

Thank you Sang for you detailed reply. Very important info for me to learn. I have gone to Lee Charles Kelley's website and will be contacting them.
Happy Holidays!
Velo & Jesse

[terribletoby]

I haven't got any advice as I am just starting/considering starting with NDT but I wanted to say thanks for posting your story. My terrier has done the same thing- he will grab another dog at the loose neck skin and hang on. No blood or growling or shaking, just hangs on like he doesn't know what to do. If the other dog nips him back, then it is all fun and games, if not (as with my mothers dog) it was very difficult to persuade him to stop.
Good luck with your training and thanks for sharing-good to hear it is not just my dog.

[Dan]

One thing I would like to comment on is the active/passive dog. My dog is extremely active. Every time I'm out with her, everyone always comments how happy she looks. I attribute this to the NDT way of releasing energy rather than suppressing it.

I know NDT people talk about this already, but I think it's important to highlight how happy dogs are when they are allowed to release energy in a natural way. It is a lot more fun for both of use. A week ago I was doing some heeling with her and some commented on her happy prancing.