anti bark spray collar

[yecartmannew]

I'm not sure if this is the right place for this, so if not please feel free to move it.

My question is about anti bark spray collars. I know you will al be horrified, and i would very much like to stop using it, however let me explain my problem.....

Gizmo barks constantly, from the minute we step outside the house untill we return. We live in a busy town on a busy street, so i cannot avoid his first trigger, which will be a person or another dog. (in the week i walk him very early, and it is fairly quiet, so he will not bark immediately, but as soon as he sees a person or dog he starts). Once he starts barking he cannot stop. He is like a toddler in the middle of a tantrum. He is so wound up that looses all contol and will continue to bark even when the trigger has gone. Once he has started, he winds himself up and becomes very agressive, he will lunge at everything trying to bite. I cannot walk him anywhere near other dogs when he is doing this as they then become agressive back toward gizmo, and he will lunge on the lead and try to bite anyone who passes us on the street.

I have tried rediretion with him over and over again. He will not even look at his tug toy, and very rarely will take food from me but will not push for it. I have tried just standing firm and holding the lead, waiting for him to have that moment where he unsure enough for me to redirect but it always ends up the same way. He goes from his agressive bark to a high pitched panic bark, and then into total shutdown where he just shakes and will not respond to anything, and he has even wet himself. Sometimes i can get him to take a bit of food but i cannot push with him as anything more than the lightest touch causes him to try to back away from me even more. (I have also tried massage to relax him, but again, he cannot bare to be touched. I keep walking with him and if i am lucky enough not to meet another trigger for a few minutes he will begin to calm down, however as soon as he sees someone else the whole thing starts again.

Contrast that scene to the one with the bark collar......

I put on his bark collar before we leave the house and switch it on. He has learned what happens when he barks with it on so most of the time he does not bark at all, however sometimes he will try a little bark but when he gets sprayed he will not then bark again. (i have tried putting on the collar but leaving it turned off, but if he does that first bark it is then too late). We walk along (he does a pretty good heel) and he will look at and sniff at passers by but is otherwise calm. He is able to greet dogs we meet with a mutual sniff of tails if i allow him, otherwise he walks past with just a little pull on the lead. He will then push with me (to download any energy he may have picked up from the encounter) and we get to the park/beach/woods in one peice. When we get to the above turn i off his bark collar (if i take it off he will immediately revert to the previous, however he doesn't know the difference between turned on or off) so that it doesn't go off by mistake if another dog barks, or when we are playing. He will push with me, play chase and hide n seek, and sometimes tug or fetchtug. He will have a great time playing with other dogs where he easily switches between predator and prey mode, and will greet people with a sniff if they are not too predator like, otherwise will just skip away from them and carry on playing. He never gets to far away from me, and always keeps an eye on where i am. As long as i keep walking he will come back to me, most of the time when i call him and always if i get too far away or out of site. when we leave the park/beach woods to walk home i turn the collar back on in just in case and we have a nice walk back home. Some final pushing to download any leftover energy and into the house.

my gut feeling is to carry on with this method long term untill he completely forgets about barking and then wean him off it gradually, however if anyone can come up with a better solution i would be glad to hear it. I know I am repressing a natural behaviour which is not good, but am at a loss as to what else to do.

Tracey

[Sang]

I have a question for you. If you go to the beach/park, without using the spray collar, does Gizmo play with the other dogs or is he aggressive towards them?

Also, when he does push with you, how much energy is he putting into pushing? Is he giving everything he has, or do you get the feeling that he still has energy left in the tank to give you?

Regardless of the answers to those questions, what is clear is that Gizmo needs to increase his holding capacity so things don't throw him off balance in the first place. Is there any place at all where you can work with him in a more controlled setting? I know you said you live on a busy street in a busy area, but is there anywhere at all that you could take him that is more isolated? Even if you have to just put him in a crate in the car to get him there instead of going on these walks, it would be incredibly beneficial to be able to find a place like that, where you can work with him at higher and higher levels of energy so that you can focus on increasing his attraction to you before you ever put him and yourself in situations where you're going to meet other dogs and people.

[yecartmannew]

hi sang

thanks for the reply.

If we go out without the bark collar, most dogs show agressive signs toward gizmo because they are reacting to his energy, however on the rare occasions a submissive enough dog actually comes near him he doesn't play with it, he doesnt even sniff it, he just stands there barking, growling and shaking with his tail tucked so far under you can see it between his front legs. The other dog will have a sniff at gizmo, bark or growl back at him and then move away. Gizmo just carries on with the barking and i drag him away.

I also forgot to mention, with the bark collar I can walk both the dogs (sometimes i walk them together, sometimes seperate) but without it i cant as gizmo upsets Bambi with his behaviour (and she is so laid back she is almost asleep!) and she starts barking and trying to run away.

Re finding a quiet place... I do take him to a quiet place some mornings really early, that is where we started working on NDT. He does ok therewith pushing. about 75% of the time i feel he gives me everything, The problem is he gets bored. I have spondylitis which is a kind of arthritis. (this means I have restricted mobility which has made me lazy and very unfit, a problem i am working on - walking is no problem, i can walk fairly briskly for miles, however I have problems with running for chase games (too high impact for my hip) and quick sideways movements for ducking and diving, fake direction and sudden changes in direction type games (due to the fusing of my spine). so my fastest pace is just a gentle jog for him. although tiny he is very very qick as he has long legs and is very long paced (showy gate) I have had problems getting him to tug or fetchtug, after trying lots of different things and a flirt pole i have found a toy he likes. sometimes he will tug with me, sometimes he will fetchtug once or twice but that is it so he gets bored mentaly and not enough physical excersise if he wont fetchtug.

When I first got him 2 months ago (he is a rehomer, he was 9 months) he hadn't been out much and was like a coiled spring, he was manic all the time and would only relax in the evenings if asleep on my lap. (he also howled all day while i was at work) I started taking him out every morning on my bicycle for a 45 minute run. When we do this, he does bark at everything but because he is running fast he doesn't get chance to get into panic mode and kind of runs through the fear. He became much better immediately, the seperation anxiety has lessened to the point where he now just whines for minute or 2 when i leave then goes to sleep. However, the physical excersise was not dealing with the underlying anxiety issues, which is what led me to NDT. The point is, i think, the fast paced excersise helps him overcome the fear, whether running with the bike or playing with other dogs, and this is something i am unable to replicate due to my physical limitations.

So the main problem is when we go to a quiet place i can't seem to rev him up enough to get him reacting at the same level of energy as when we go out for walks. He therefore misses out on the physical excersice, when we go to a busy place he gets the physical excersise but not enough mental stimulation from me.

Any suggestions?

I will put another post in the basics section of my routine so you can all see where I am going wrong (if I am) and maybe that will help.

[Sang]

Thanks for the info. That starts to paint a clearer picture. I can definitely see the physical challenges you’re facing, so I applaud your commitment to this.

To increase his desire to push, have you tried fasting him for a meal or two before taking him out to work with him? That can usually have quite an effect on a dog’s desire to push. In addition to that, you can also tie him up to a post, a tree, a fence, or have a helper hold his leash, while you tease him and encourage him with some food to get him to strain against the lead to push into you. This will also help increase his drive to make contact with you.

Once you’ve tried that, and you feel you’re ready to move onto something more advanced, you can try this next exercise. When you’re at your quiet place, again tie Gizmo up to a tree or a fence, or whatever you can find that isn’t going to move. Use a line that isn’t too long. Maybe something along the lines of a 6 ft lead. Just keep him tied up there for a while without doing anything. The goal is to give him a chance to store up energy so he has it available to give you. Tie a tug toy to a line, or if you have a long tug rope or something similar that will work as well. Once you feel he’s sat there long enough, stand about 20 feet in front of him and start stalking him. Point at him, stare at him, sway the toy back and forth on the ground in front of you. Just embody the feeling of being the big predator, stalking its prey. If he shows any signs of direct behavior, like looking right at you, pulling on the lead, etc…..you can rush in and zing him with a bit of food to increase his confidence. Then walk away and start again. Once you get close enough to him to where the tug toy is just out of his reach, keep teasing him a bit with it to really get him revved up to want to bite it. He may start barking and lunging to get to it which will be great. Once he’s straining to get the toy, let him bite it and then let him fight you for it for a moment. Then of course let him win and then praise him for winning. Do a rub a dub with him, massaging him and just relaxing him. Spend some time just relaxing there together, and then do the exercise again. You don’t want to overdo this one, so maybe 2 or 3 times should do it for one session, as it can be pretty intense for a lot of dogs early on. Once they get into this exercise though, they love it.

Essentially what you’ll be doing with this exercise is you’ll be pumping up the energetic volume, so to speak, which is going to really help you when you’re out in the real world and you come across those triggers like dogs or people. This exercise creates a lot of resistance that he needs to overcome. The physical resistance of being tied up, as well as the emotional resistance that he’s going to experience as well. What he’ll learn through this exercise is how to push through his fear and conquer it. And you’ll get credit for that, which will translate out into the “real world”. Remember, he only has one fear. That fear just gets triggered by different stimuli. Whether it’s dogs, people, the delivery truck, etc…..for him it’s all the same. So by helping him conquer his fear in this isolated area, he won’t feel the need to express his fear as much when seeing those other triggers like the dogs and people. Once he starts to learn how to play this game, it’s going to feel WAY better to unload his energy in the bite than it will be to offload it by lunging and barking at other dogs and people.

Let me know if that makes sense or if you need any clarification on anything. Hope that helps.

[yecartmannew]

this sounds really interesting!

I will give it a try once the holidays are over and we are back to our normal routine of quiet early mornings.

In the meantime we had a bit of a breakthrough of our own on boxing day. Instead of walking to the park we drove there as i was pushed for time. I didn't have chance to take them out at all on Christmas day so Gizmo was really excited. He had his bark collar on but switched off as we were in the car. After we had been in the park a couple of minutes one of his doggy friends came along and gizmo barked one big deep bark. His doggy friend was not fazed by this as they play together often, and just carried on with his normal play behaviour, sniffing, play bowing etc. I was in the middle of thinkig it was all going to go wrong now that Gizmo had barked, and next minute they were tearing across the park in full persuit of each other! When they came back Gizmo gave me a really big push. He was a bit barky for the rest of the walk, approaching each dog by barking, but stopped barking once he was next to the dog and played with each of them, after each play i called him and he came back and pushed with me. (there was just one hairy moment when he he went crazy barking at a small child, who started to cry. Fortunately for me the mother seemed to be of the opinion that the child shouln't be such a wuss. She didn't seem to mind at all that some strange dog was barking furiously and lunging at her child!. I did appologise profusely however as i dragged Gizmo away to praise him out of their earshot! and he did a pretty good about 90% push and stopped barking.)

No walk yesterday as it was raining all day but i will see what happens today. I think i will drive him to the park a couple more times, and if it all goes ok will try walking him on the streets and see if the barking is better. Hopefully he is learning to keep better contol of himself and not descend into complete panic, even if he is scared!

Hope you all had a good Christmas,

Tracey