after a bite

[rudy]

Lou chased down a runner and bit her shoes on the laces just now. That's his MO - shoe biting.

Understandably, she, the runner, wasn't thrilled. Of course, he can't/doesn't bite through shoes, so she wasn't hurt. I didn't know what to say, other than I'm so sorry. Are you ok? I got lectured.

He was dragging his leash - I just missed seeing her. Two other runners/walkers had gone by and he let them pass but the dogs next door were barking at this runner and they always get him energized...

My house was flooded with water from the attic 2x in three days about 10 days ago requiring a good bit of demolition. Needless to say, I am a little preoccupied these days. It's pretty rare that I don't have a hold of Lou's leash...

He has come soooooo far - he hups up on my neighbors to get petted now. People can run/walk/bike/push a stroller right by us in the park. But obviously we're still at hit or miss.

So, what do you guys do after something has happened? Other than feel horrible

[Chris]

I try and say something like "Oh knickers I blew that" (or in truth some a lot worse than that ) but it's not easy and I know how you feel. It feels like such a set back at the time but it's not.

Ty is also a lace grabber but he seems to pick and choose who he grabs at, normally people me know He did take a gumboot off a naughty kid on day but I could only grin as the kid deserved it.

It's impossible to get our management of the dogs 100% when other stuff is going on in our lives, don't beat yourself up just go have some good tugs with Lou and enjoy him.

[rudy]

Ugh, easier said than done. She reported me to animal control.

Gotta say that I'm pretty angry about it.

No ticket -"this time". And since there is no proof of a bite no quarantine. Animal control said that the woman reported that he'd bitten before! As if she knew anything.

THIS is exactly my fear. Of course, I don't want anyone to get hurt but losing Lou is by far my greater fear.

It of course doesn't help that my husband goes about telling all the neighbors either. My neighbors all know Lou (and can pet him now) and see me training them, and know he's a work in progress - but still!

I will show great restraint... but I'm tempted to go do bark work in front of her house. Though, of pushing is an internal mechanism for change for both human and dog, pushing in front of her house may now relieve the charge.

[Chris]

Oh that sucks, so sorry this has happened.

It is also my biggest fear with Ty, I'm always warning my hubby that we can never let our guard down no matter how improved Ty gets, if we do that will be the day he does the Big Bad Wolf act at the wrong person who will report us.

Thankfully you didn't get a ticket but it does put Lou on the radar for animal control for a while

[Lee Charles Kelley]

This is not a great situation, but it is showing you something. Lou needs to bite stuff. Lou also seems to like to bite stuff that's moving.

So my focus would be to give Lou an alternative, more satisfying target, one that is always available, and much, much more enjoyable.

Do you play "chase me" with Lou? How about fetch/tug?

LCK

[rudy]

Hi Lee

Ya, most certainly likes movement for targets. Before I found NDT I was looking around for a transportable lure coursing machine so he could chase and bite to his heart's content.

Here's our routine

Every morning, I take Lou's breakfast and we either go to a park or vacant lot. If we are at the vacant lot, he can run free dragging a leash. He's not running off by himself, we walk the perimeter of the lot as he sniffs/pees. When I feel like I've lost a connection with him I say "Ready!" and he runs back to push - sometimes I turn and run after Ready so he has to chase me to push.

Then (and this is where the routine at the park is the same) I tie him up and play tug with a long rope tug. Tug, Lou wins, speak!, food.

In the last 2-3 months Lou has started enjoying the tug -but he doesn't love it. But he will play for 10 minutes or so. If I don't have food he won't play at all.

Then I take my Chuck-It and Lou fetches a tennis ball - when he gets close to me on the way back I run from him and when he catches me "Ready!" push for food. Sometimes I'll then pick up the tug toy and tease him with it until he tugs. And then chuck the ball again, repeat. He fetches no problem even with some other people at the park - in the beginning just the sound of a human voice would set him off, so this is big progress. I didn't have much success with a ball tied up in a sock for fetch/tug... but I could try it again. He won't fetch anything but a ball - yet. We work/play for about 45 minutes.

This week I tried something new: I threw the ball and when he was about half way to it I said LOU! READY! he turned mid-air and came to me for a push. Then he ran back out for the ball.

That's the morning routine. In the evening I have Lou's dinner in a belt and we go to a big state park for a jog at heel - about 40 minutes. This used to be impossible. But now when runners/bikers/strollers go by he looks to me for a push. We push as we go. I'll send him to a "box" aka tree stump as we pass it. I practise a panic-down when I lose his attention: sometimes from there I'll ask for speak or push. Sometimes, if no one is around I'll keep jogging off as he stays down - sometimes I call him to come as I run and then grab his leash and keep going, or I'll stop and call him to push. He LOVES that game. I have tried adding tugging to the jog, but unless we are specifically playing a game of tug, he won't tug. He does not look to me for a bite/tug when energized, just for a push.

Here's a Lou oddity: at the park, he will let a human pass us no problem. He will let a "free" dog pass us. But if the dog is with a human on leash....oh boy!!!

In my yard, (where this shoe attack happened - right outside my yard), all bets are off. He won't fetch at all and tug isn't much better. He will push and speak and go to box. He isn't playful at all at home.

Food is still vital to all of this. There is no push for toy. No food = no cooperation or interest.

At the house, Lou and I do a lot of climbing/struggling to climb high surfaces - his crate, the trunk of my car, a wall, etc. This works great for outside. Really really great. But, if he is barking/whining in his crate in the house (he hears new people in the house) and I let him out to do more push/climb to calm him, he will instantly "attack" my shoes or grab something in his mouth - I now go armed with a toy and he will tug like a demon. He wins. I get him to climb the crate and then put him back in it. Sometimes I have to do this 5+ times before he is calm in the crate.

So, any suggestions? What can I do?

[Lee Charles Kelley]

Originally Posted by rudy

we walk the perimeter of the lot as he sniffs/pees. When I feel like I've lost a connection with him I say "Ready!" and he runs back to push - sometimes I turn and run after Ready so he has to chase me to push.

This week I tried something new: I threw the ball and when he was about half way to it I said LOU! READY! he turned mid-air and came to me for a push. Then he ran back out for the ball.

when runners/bikers/strollers go by he looks to me for a push. We push as we go. I'll send him to a "box" aka tree stump as we pass it. I practise a panic-down when I lose his attention: sometimes from there I'll ask for speak or push. Sometimes, if no one is around I'll keep jogging off as he stays down - sometimes I call him to come as I run and then grab his leash and keep going, or I'll stop and call him to push. He LOVES that game.

In my yard, (where this shoe attack happened - right outside my yard), all bets are off. He won't fetch at all and tug isn't much better. He will push and speak and go to box. He isn't playful at all at home.

Food is still vital to all of this. There is no push for toy. No food = no cooperation or interest.

At the house, Lou and I do a lot of climbing/struggling to climb high surfaces - his crate, the trunk of my car, a wall, etc. This works great for outside. Really really great. But, if he is barking/whining in his crate in the house (he hears new people in the house) and I let him out to do more push/climb to calm him, he will instantly "attack" my shoes or grab something in his mouth - I now go armed with a toy and he will tug like a demon. He wins. I get him to climb the crate and then put him back in it. Sometimes I have to do this 5+ times before he is calm in the crate.

So, any suggestions? What can I do?

Hi Rudy,

It sounds like you're making a lot of progress.

I would recommend playing more "chase me," where instead of just getting him to chase you to push, you make it hard for him to catch you: zig-zag, stop-and-start, invite him to jump up then push him off and run away, fake left and go right, fake left and go left, etc. All in all, about 15 secs. worth of high-intensity chase me, ending with a good, hard game of tug.

The 2nd thing is that you've got to have more control over him in the yard, so you have to get him to play hard in the yard. If you can get him to play with the same intensity as he does on his long walks, you're home free.

One way to do this is to tie him up and wait till his desire to do something, anything is about at its peak (this can take up to 20 mins.), and then release him into some of these same chase-me games. Another tactic is to tie him up and play fetch and/or tug with another dog, with a lot of intensity, while ignoring Lou: not eye contact even. Then once the intensity of the play becomes infectious, you release Lou and get him to play tug with you really, really hard. Then throw a toy, and as he chases it, say "Ready?" to see if he'll turn and come running back to you.

As for the emergency down, there's been a discussion on another thread here about this, and other exercises, that involve corrections. In Natural Dog Training Kevin makes no bones about the need for corrections. But I believe he also says that really hard corrections should only be done once. In my practice I've found that it's only necessary to do a correction 3 times at most. (With the emergency down this usually means a hard shock on the collar to get the dog into the down position.) This type of correction should NOT be done more than 3 times.

I don't know if that's relevant. But I would focus on getting the same intensity out of Lou in the yard that you're getting in other locales.

LCK

[rudy]

Thanks so much!

I've already tried some of the chase me ideas. Rudy, my 13 yo cocker, had a BLAST chasing me. Lou is still learning that it's fun. I think I'll give him a day or two off to bottle up some energy (if he doesn't drive me CRAZY ) and then try again. Also, he acts like a nut-job after I trim his coat down, don't ask me why, so I'll do that, too.

I'm going to take a couple of days off my own training too - I'm always training for my next race and thus I don't have much spare energy for chase me games.