Need assurance/help...

[Charles&theZmonster]

A quick background:

So I have been reading a ton and implementing NDT for a couple of months with our 10 month old Weim puppy Zoey who we have had since she was 8 weeks old. We also have a well mannered 10 year old Weim. I push with her for breakfast every morning as well as use pushing when she gets overwhelmed. She pushes pretty hard most of the time getting her front paws off the ground. It does seem to calm her down to a degree as does using the "Eyes" command. I also have been playing tug/fetchtug with her quite a bit. There's a noticeable change in her personality after I play tug - less getting into trash etc BUT...

I bring her to work with me every day which is a retail shop. Quite often she freaks out when customers come in - ESPECIALLY if they are kids or have squeaky voices. Sometimes I'll let her out to meet an adult, but she has been sketchy with kids. If I am by myself, it's hard for me to redirect which is maybe 50% of the time. In those cases I leave her in her crate or behind the counter (in between play sessions) often with her barking. If someone else is here, I can focus on redirecting and pushing (indoors). (BTW I'm curious if pushing inside is okay - it seems to help...) The shop, as a result, seems to be a place where her battery is already at 1/2 a tank before anything happens.

BIG BUT - I have a really hard time enticing her to play tug outside. There is a dog walking area where I bring her to play so there are a lot of other smells. Sometimes I can get her to play, other times it's no go. Occasionally acting like a predator and then running when she reacts works. I can push with her no problem at the run.

Today on my way out to play she nipped a kid who was walking by on the sidewalk minding his own business - I normally wait until the path is clear to the alley we take to the run just in case. She has also broken free and nipped an older woman. I am feeling very discouraged - it seems like only a matter of time before she really causes some damage and I get sued or she gets euthanized. I know this isn't a quick fix method, but I'm beginning to wonder if I'll ever get there or if I am just not going about things correctly.

HELP!

Things that make her nervous: Cars crunching ice, dark clothing/hoods, children, loud shoes, boisterous/and or squeaky voices. She seems to have separation anxiety as well although it is getting a little better. She will often destroy something in the house in our absence so it is not often that she is left alone (so she is running our lives...)

Thanks in advance

Josh

[Sang]

Hey Josh, you're doing all the right things, so have faith. You will get there.

When you're trying to get her to play tug, are you doing the pushing first to get her energy moving, or are you just trying to get her to play tug without pushing. Combining the 2 can help her overcome her resistance to it. But what you're doing now is really good-acting predator like and then running away when she reacts.

It sounds like she's reactive to many things, but the most important thing that needs to be addressed is her reaction to kids/people. So the only time I would feed her is around kids and strangers. Get her to push with you around them, and then once she's giving you all her energy and fully engaged with you, see if you can get the person to feed her.

Ideally pushing outside is the best. But sometimes pushing inside can be used as damage control to help. But again, it really is best to keep it outdoors if possible.

Have you tried teaching her to speak on command? This is also a great tool you can use indoors when she starts getting overwhelmed. It will allow her to take all that incoherent energy and make it coherent.

Hope that helps.

[Charles&theZmonster]

Hi Sang-

I do usually push a bit before trying to get her to tug although it hasn't seemed to make much difference. What I did today that seemed to work really well was to leave her tied to a bench for a couple of minutes while I walked away (got the idea from another post that LCK responded to). She definitely abandoned being interested in other things and was laser focused on me. After she barked a bit, I went back and had her chase me followed by some tug. The tugging only lasted a minute or 2, but at least it is a start... It seems a little weird to add stress to reduce stress, but it definitely seemed to satiate her prey drive.

One thing I forgot to mention is she really tugs on the leash unless I am constantly verbally engaging her i.e. "Good girl Zoey! Who's the good heeler!?" etc...

I have been trying to teach her to speak, just haven't quite gotten there yet. I'll keep working at it.

I'm a little nervous to try to get a kid to feed her at this point. I do occasionally bring her around the counter at work so that she can see that the stranger is not a threat (after checking with them first). Maybe I'll try with our neighbors (adults) who seem to set her off fairly regularly.

Thanks for the words of encouragement! I'll try to update as things progress. Let me know if you think of any other ideas...

Josh

[Sang]

Originally Posted by Charles&theZmonster

What I did today that seemed to work really well was to leave her tied to a bench for a couple of minutes while I walked away (got the idea from another post that LCK responded to). She definitely abandoned being interested in other things and was laser focused on me. After she barked a bit, I went back and had her chase me followed by some tug. The tugging only lasted a minute or 2, but at least it is a start... It seems a little weird to add stress to reduce stress, but it definitely seemed to satiate her prey drive.

Nice job. What that's doing is triggering the deeper stress that she normally holds in reserve.

I agree, I wouldn't encourage having a child feed her at this point either. But if you can have an adult help you that would be beneficial.

Good luck!

[Charles&theZmonster]

The Z Monster had another setback tonight. We were going to a friends house who was having a dinner party. They have a 1.5 year old 50lb female dog and a 8 year old kid. Since Z has been doing some damage at home when we leave her (even after a good tug session/cooldown) we decided what the heck - if things get crazy we can put her in the car and I'll try to use this as an opportunity.

The dogs got along great together and played hard for quite some time. The kiddo was off doing his own thing most of this time. The first couple times Z caught site of him she was still highly attracted to the kid so she didn't even pay him mind. The third time he was walking by and she lunged a bit (on leash) and barked loudly scaring him thoroughly. I pushed a bit inside, tried to get her to tug outside to no avail and then put her in the truck.

45 minutes later took her back out for another dog play session until she seemed beat and then put her back in the truck for a bit, and then back out for a bone chew after kiddo went to bed. This whole time she was highly attracted to the dog - not so much to me. I'd do an occasional "eyes" to settle her down or push to try to relieve some tension.

When we got back in the truck to leave I noticed that the headlight switch on the turn signal stalk had been chewed to heck as well as the seatbelts. Had to forcefully hold the switch in place to get lights for the 1/2 hour drive home...

Meanwhile we are both wondering what we got ourselves into - Z had just eaten a couple of expensive things the day before in my 1 hour absence. On the ride home my wife was asking (rhetorically I hope...) "will the breeder take her back? This dog is completely defective!"

BTW I am the one who takes care of this dog/trains her so I feel like I am failing when she has an episode like this. I know - I need to lose that mindset, and I do most of the time, but in these bigger badder times, it's hard! Couple that with the decidedly non-NDT techniques my wife uses when she's annoyed with Z and I feel we're at a standstill.

Ugh

J

[Sang]

The "setbacks" are annoying for sure, but it's just part of the process. So don't feel bad about feeling bad. You're supposed to feel that way because it's making you get comfortable with that feeling. Occupying that emotional space is where growth happens and things are changing, even if it doesn't look like it from the outside.

Question. Does Z have run of the house when she's left at home, or do you leave her in the crate? I know you said she stays in the crate at your store about half the time. Also, is she ok with staying in a crate in your truck, or in a crate when you take her to someone else's house?

The bigger question is, what is Z's routine at home when you're both at home? Is she given free roam of the house, or is she contained most of the time? The more free roam she has, the more trouble she's going to get herself into. I'm going to assume that she probably is getting free roam of the house, since you mentioned that she has destroyed some stuff while you were away.

[Charles&theZmonster]

Hey Sang-

Question. Does Z have run of the house when she's left at home, or do you leave her in the crate? I know you said she stays in the crate at your store about half the time. Also, is she ok with staying in a crate in your truck, or in a crate when you take her to someone else's house?

I have tried crating her both at the home and in the car. She's fine at bed time in her crate and on a limited basis for short spurts during the day. Otherwise if we crate her when we leave or ignore her for more than 10-15 minutes she flips out - shreds the cover/contents gets scratched up in the process and has broken out before. I'm thinking our older dog being loose while she's crated doesn't help... Anyway, recently yes she has had the run of the house while I'm home and when we've gone out - based on the first time she broke out and amazingly didn't wreck anything. That honeymoon is over...

I have been trying to move towards putting her in there like at the shop but so far it hasn't worked timing wise... I need to be more consistent for sure.

Recommendations on how to keep her from going crazy in the crate? I have been trying to keep her chill inside and keeping outside for getting ya has out.

Thanks for your time Sang!

Josh

[Sang]

How does she do if you put her in the crate with something to chew on?

When you're at home with her, you can also try tying her to a door knob or something so she can't run around the house freely. Or maybe even put her in a small little sectioned off area that's been puppy proofed to keep her out of trouble but isn't quite as confined as the crate.

The important thing isn't necessarily the crate itself, as it is not giving her chances to get in trouble.

To help her learn to settle down, I would spend some more time working on her settle response outdoors. Pushing and tug get the energy moving, then the settle helps take all that energy and put it into being calm. I'm sure you've seen Kevin doing it in videos, but it will help her learn that getting all worked up is a waste of her energy, but being channeled is an efficient use of her energy. This should eventually start to translate indoors where she'll be able to start self regulating more.

[Charles&theZmonster]

I think once she gets worked up the chew goes by the way side. If it's raw hide it's usually gone by the time we get home. Peanut butter kongs and marrow bones keep her busy for a bit but not long enough. We tried putting her in the bathroom which worked pretty well but then she destroyed the shower curtain. Still that may be the best bet when we leave her for more than 15-20 min with her crate being used for down time. She does this cry when she gets frustrated - the trick has been to figure out how to get her to want to be in the crate. I think we're getting closer but she still is unmanageable when it's over a certain amount of time.

To help her learn to settle down, I would spend some more time working on her settle response outdoors.

Do you mean with an energized down then adding massage?

I'm sure you've seen Kevin doing it in videos, but it will help her learn that getting all worked up is a waste of her energy, but being channeled is an efficient use of her energy.

If you have a link and wouldn't mind posting it that'd be great. I have read a ton mostly here and on Lee's site/blog as well as watched some QK and Neil's DailyOM course but I haven't seen anything about settle response yet.

Thanks for taking time out of your day to respond Sang. I truly appreciate it.

Josh

[Sang]

I never asked, but it could be relevant, how was she originally crate trained? There is a trick you can use to help her feel like she's making the choice to go into the crate, but it only works if she's giving you lots of energy in pushing.

As far as some video samples, here you go. This is Kevin training a puppy the settle on a box/raised surface.

Kevin Training Hero « The Official Natural Dog Training Website: News, Discussions, Advice, Training Tips and Techniques from Kevin Behan

There's all kind of videos here for you as well:

Videos « The Official Natural Dog Training Website: News, Discussions, Advice, Training Tips and Techniques from Kevin Behan

And, if you really want to become a total NDT geek, here's every Quantum Canine episode except Episode 3, which I have yet to track down. I'm listing them in order. Each episode is about 30 minutes long, so you won't be able to watch them in one sitting. Believe me, these may not answer your current questions directly, but you will get something out of watching each one that will help you work through your situation with your pup. In fact, anyone interested in NDT should watch all of these.

Episode 1: What is Natural Dog Training?
Quantum Canine Episode 1:What is Natural? - YouTube

Episode 2: Eye Contact
Quantum Canine Episode 2:Eye Contact - YouTube

Episode 4: Grounding-skip ahead to 23:50 if you want to see another example of working on the box
Quantum Canine Episode 4:Grounding - YouTube

Episode 5: Fear to Joy through Hunger
Quantum Canine Episode 5:Fear to Joy - YouTube

Episode 6: Pushing
Quantum Canine Episode 6:Pushing_Pt2 - YouTube

Episode 7: Dominance
Quantum Canine Episode 7ominance - YouTube

Episode 8: A Trip to the Vet
Quantum Canine Episode 8:A Trip to the Vet - YouTube

Episode 9: Rowe Seminar Pt1
Quantum Canine Episode 9:Rowe Seminar Part 1 - YouTube

Episode 10: Rowe Seminar Pt2
Quantum Canine Episode 10:Rowe Seminar Part 2 - YouTube

Episode 11: Chicken Coup
Quantum Canine Episode 11:Chicken Coup - YouTube

Episode 12: Barking
Quantum Canine Episode 12:Barking - YouTube

Episode 13: Do Dogs Think and Martel House
Quantum Canine Episode 13o Dogs Think, and David Martel House - YouTube

Episode 14: Big Dog Meets Puppy
Quantum Canine Episode 14:Big Dog Meets Puppy - YouTube

Episode 15: Questions and Answers
Quantum Canine Episode 15:Questions and Answers - YouTube

Episode 16: Prey Controls Predator
Quantum Canine Episode 16:Prey Controls the Predator and The Pushing Exercise - YouTube

Episode 17: Biting
Quantum Canine Episode 17:Biting - YouTube

Episode 18: NDT Theory
Quantum Canine Episode 18:Natural Dog Training Theory - YouTube

I know this is a bit of information overload, but I figure you'd rather have it all available to you at once rather than having me dole it out little by little.