More questions than answers....

[donnieo]

Hi everyone;

I'm having a little problem and hope that someone can answer a couple of questions for me.

For quite a while, it seemed that Jinxsie's recall was improving greatly, but now she seems to be going backwards in some ways. I find that often she won't come when called even when there's nothing going on, and often times I have run, or hide, or do something else to get her attention. Admittedly, I haven't been very consistent lately: my partner's dog (who has IBD) can't have any sort of treats, and since I've been looking after both our dogs on my own for the holidays while she was away I've had to take them out together. So, our training fell off for a bit because I couldn't train one of the dogs and have the other just tag along.

I just started our training routine again and it takes a while longer for her to get into the social mood. I usually have to go right up to her with food to get her even interested in pushing. Then, during our sessions, we usually get to a point where all she wants to do is sniff around. My guess is that I need to take more breaks, and maybe shorten our training sessions together. Am I right about this?

The thing that has me most concerned is Jinxsie's relationship with my partner; or, more pointedly, lack thereof. Jinxsie will not listen to her at all. She's run off on F. a few times and will usually come back about 20 minutes later. This last time, however, was very different. Fiona took the dogs to a park that they'd never been to before, and Jinxsie seemed very anxious. Apparently she seemed very fearful of passers-by and actually barked at a few people. When I'm with her, she normally goes up to most people for pets, but this time she wouldn't come within 10 feet of them. Then she took off for about 45 minutes.

F. and I have very different views on dog training. She used +R to train her dog, but now uses corrections "because Yoshi should know better". Natural Dog Training is actually a bit of a sore spot between us: she thinks that Being The Moose is silly and that NDT is overly complex. I've suggested that she do some pushing or at the very least play with Jinxsie one-on-one to try and build a bond, but she's not interested and feels bad about spending time with my dog and not hers. I've suggested that she do some pushing with her own Yoshi to help him with his separation anxiety, and this only seemed to create more resistance to the whole NDT concept. I'm not sure why there is this resistance to trying something new, especially since I'd say that out of the two of us, I seem to have a better relationship with both of our dogs. They don't run off on me, and her dog (who can be aggressive around toys, adolescent dogs and intact male dogs) is actually better behaved off-leash with me than her.

Before I adopted Jinxsie, she was with a family who did nothing with her after she grew out of puppyhood; they would stick her in the backyard and she'd jump the fence and wander around their town. She's what Kevin refers to as "bleached" in his book, so she's never had a bond with one person, let alone two. This, along with my previous use of "crossover" (correction/reward) training (so not only does she need to learn to bond with someone, we need to re-build our relationship) has made the training process somewhat challenging. Like I said, I have a lot of questions right now:

- What's up with the barking? My theory is that her "friendliness" with strangers in the park is an expression of fear, and because she was out with someone to whom she's not bonded (and may be fearful of; F. still occassionally corrects her or stares her down if she does something "disobedient" - I'm working on getting her to stop this) her fear came out as barking and, well, fear. I don't know if I'm right about this or not, or my perception is coloured by other issues in my relationship.

- This isn't an NDT question per se, but has anyone else who is training their dog with NDT encountered resistance to it by someone who interacts heavily with your dog? If so, how did you deal with it? Since Jinxsie's most recent adventure, F. has told me she won't take Jinxsie off leash without me there. I think this is for the best. For now I think I'm going to ask F. to limit her interaction with Jinxsie, at least until she has a better understanding of what I'm trying to accomplish. Does this seem reasonable, of am I over-reacting? Once Jinxsie's obedience skills are more refined, will she become more responsive to F., provided I can convince F. to at the very least try to do some work to bond with Jinxsie?

- As far as my own interaction with Jinxsie, should I keep it to training and training walks? Usually I do some training with her in the morning and go on a more unstructured walk/play after work. The evenings are a little too cold here for me to train with her right now- I couldn't feel my hands after the last time I took her out to push with her at night! I've been trying to watch how long our training sessions go, and wonder if instead of structuring it as training session-unstructured walk, I should do two longer walks, interspersing our play with training. Does this make sense?

I'm feeling a little lost in all of this, and trying to take solace in something Kevin recently said to me: "remember that only dog training of all the disciplines is considered to be easy, when it is an art form just like all the others that requires understanding and mastery." Despite all my ambitions to become a professional dog trainer, it is important for me to remember that I am learning a new skill set. Anyway, any advice or insight that anyone can offer would be most helpful.

[neilsattin]

Hi Donnieo - a lot to talk about here - I'll try to address the points one at a time:

Originally Posted by donnieo

Admittedly, I haven't been very consistent lately: my partner's dog (who has IBD) can't have any sort of treats, and since I've been looking after both our dogs on my own for the holidays while she was away I've had to take them out together. So, our training fell off for a bit because I couldn't train one of the dogs and have the other just tag along.

Along with an ebb and flow being perfectly normal, it is certainly to be expected when your work becomes less regular. It's amusing - not that you have this notion, but many people think that training a dog is like "set it and forget it" - but, on the other hand, people who work with horses recognize that training is a lifelong/relationship-long process - that necessitates consistency over the long term. That ebb and flow is fine - but when you're sensing "boredom" on your dog's part, that's definitely a time to change things up, and/or...

I just started our training routine again and it takes a while longer for her to get into the social mood. I usually have to go right up to her with food to get her even interested in pushing. Then, during our sessions, we usually get to a point where all she wants to do is sniff around. My guess is that I need to take more breaks, and maybe shorten our training sessions together. Am I right about this?

Yes, from the sounds of it - shorten the training. Vary the routine. Scale back slightly on the amount of food so that Jinxsie's a little hungrier at each session. Do more tug at the beginning to get Jinxsie in the groove, transition to push-of-war, transition to pushing. You could also do some of the predator-ish routines to stir up Jinxsie's emotional battery a bit before you give her the pushing outlet. Maybe some of the "medium predator" that I write about in this article: Neil's article on The Right Way to be a Predator

Before I adopted Jinxsie, she was with a family who did nothing with her after she grew out of puppyhood; they would stick her in the backyard and she'd jump the fence and wander around their town. She's what Kevin refers to as "bleached" in his book, so she's never had a bond with one person, let alone two. This, along with my previous use of "crossover" (correction/reward) training (so not only does she need to learn to bond with someone, we need to re-build our relationship) has made the training process somewhat challenging. Like I said, I have a lot of questions right now:

A dog's history is helpful in determining the cause of symptoms that you're experiencing - but I would not let it concern you beyond that. Maybe even the label of "bleached" is getting in your way? Try to come to each day with as much of a blank slate, in terms of your expectations, as possible. Work with what is, in the moment - rather than what "was".

- What's up with the barking? My theory is that her "friendliness" with strangers in the park is an expression of fear, and because she was out with someone to whom she's not bonded (and may be fearful of; F. still occassionally corrects her or stares her down if she does something "disobedient" - I'm working on getting her to stop this) her fear came out as barking and, well, fear. I don't know if I'm right about this or not, or my perception is coloured by other issues in my relationship.

OR it could be that she's more comfortable with you, able to be in the flow around you, and doesn't feel "strangers" to be nudging her towards her threshold when you're around. But with F. - it seems logical, given everything else that you've said, that Jinxsie would probably already be experiencing tension - so she'd be walking around closer to her threshold before the strangers make their appearance. The barking is like steam escaping from the teakettle.

- This isn't an NDT question per se, but has anyone else who is training their dog with NDT encountered resistance to it by someone who interacts heavily with your dog? If so, how did you deal with it? Since Jinxsie's most recent adventure, F. has told me she won't take Jinxsie off leash without me there. I think this is for the best. For now I think I'm going to ask F. to limit her interaction with Jinxsie, at least until she has a better understanding of what I'm trying to accomplish. Does this seem reasonable, of am I over-reacting? Once Jinxsie's obedience skills are more refined, will she become more responsive to F., provided I can convince F. to at the very least try to do some work to bond with Jinxsie?

It sounds like you're making good choices. Of course, you can't *expect* F. to embrace NDT - and the more that you push the issue, the harder that situation will become. Ultimately NDT, and the dogs, isn't the issue. You alluded earlier to "other issues in your relationship" - if I had to wager a guess, those issues are filtering their way into your conversation/tension about dogs. You can't really know what's "the dogs" until you deal with some of THOSE issues on their own. And you might find that once you've found higher, common ground on which to stand with F., that you can reapproach the dog issue in a new light. At that point she might be in more of a mood to appreciate what you're doing.

In the meantime, my opinion is that managing the interaction between Jinxsie and F. might be the pertinent approach. You're keeping them BOTH out of harm's way that way. F. can be in situations with Jinxsie where "training style" isn't an issue, and, likewise, Jinxsie can be in situations with F. where it's not an issue. If you had a child, and felt uncomfortable with the way that another parent was disciplining your child, and cared about maintaining your relationship with that parent, you'd probably find ways to

• protect your child from being disciplined in the manner you thought inappropriate
• structure interactions so that discipline wouldn't be an issue for the other parent
• step up to do your part when you're both around
• refrain from making the other parent's discipline style an issue - unless it REALLY needed to be addressed. Which it might if you were, for instance, planning to get hitched with that person.

- As far as my own interaction with Jinxsie, should I keep it to training and training walks? Usually I do some training with her in the morning and go on a more unstructured walk/play after work. The evenings are a little too cold here for me to train with her right now- I couldn't feel my hands after the last time I took her out to push with her at night! I've been trying to watch how long our training sessions go, and wonder if instead of structuring it as training session-unstructured walk, I should do two longer walks, interspersing our play with training. Does this make sense?

I think you should feel free to experiment, and report back here as to what's working. And then, if/when it stops working, report back on how you're experimenting to try and deal with it. In general I think "shorter" is better when it comes to training. And I think that unstructured play/walk time is equally as important to a doggie's development as the structured time. In fact, maybe you could think about making your "structured" time feel less structured - and it would take the pressure off both you and Jinxsie (and F. for that matter). (??)

I'm feeling a little lost in all of this, and trying to take solace in something Kevin recently said to me: "remember that only dog training of all the disciplines is considered to be easy, when it is an art form just like all the others that requires understanding and mastery." Despite all my ambitions to become a professional dog trainer, it is important for me to remember that I am learning a new skill set. Anyway, any advice or insight that anyone can offer would be most helpful.

Don't let your ambition to become a professional dog trainer give way to fear that you won't be able to become a professional dog trainer. Relax about your progress, and give yourself time to really own the techniques. At some point it WILL become "natural" to you - though there is ALWAYS something to learn...even once you become a "master" yourself.