Aligning Kevin and Neils' information

[joframe]

Please accept my apologies if this is covered elsewhere, but I can't find it....
I have watched Neil's 2 DVD set, read 'your dog is your mirror' and have nearly finished 'Natural Dog training' and I am having some difficulty aligning the 2 from a practical point of view.

I can understand the overall concept of teaching your dog while in drive but there are some differences in approach that raise questions for me.

1) not sure I quite understand the point of the 'box' work? it doesn't seem to be mentioned in the book? is the dog put in drive because he is trying to stay on the box, more to concentrate on? is it just to identify a common place to work from that is always the same place? Clarifying would help me to understand when and how often to use it

2) heel work - neil's dvd's show a friendly (my words!), easy-going way of getting your dog to focus on you while walking. Kevin's description show a bit of correction (although as far as the dog is concerned nothing to do with the owner) which Neil doesn't cover. What approach to people use, a combination of the two - or does the 'correction' (I know its not strictly speaking a correction) need to be included when higher distractions arise?

I would be interested to hear how people reconcile?

[Sang]

The box work helps the dog learn to use his energy more efficiently. In the beginning, most dogs invariably will hop on the box, then hop off the box, on the box, off the box……and this can go on for a while. But by only feeding him when he’s on the box, with the ultimate goal of him being settled on the box, he learns on his own that it takes more effort to bounce around to get what he wants than it does to just relax in his place to get what he wants. By approaching it this way, he starts to feel movement even while lying still. This way of teaching him to settle, allows him to channel his drive into staying put, so it doesn’t shut him down emotionally when he’s settled. Rather, he still feels open and channeled while lying still. As result he learns that the less he does, the more he gets. The more relaxed he is the more he things that he wants come to him. He can feel a connection to the things going on around him by staying put, rather than feeling the need to pursue them.

As for the heelwork. The way you initially teach the dog to heel by your side is what Neil is showing you in the dvd, but then to make the heeling more precise and energized, you add in the “corrections”. So it’s both. It’s important to keep in mind that they aren’t actual corrections, and should not be thought of in that manner. The purpose of the leash pop is not to correct the dog for not heeling. It’s to add energy when he’s already heeling. Only “correct” when the dog is energized and doing what you want, NOT when he’s doing what you don’t want. The reason being that you are trying to create an emotional imprint with the leash pop so that in the future, when you do need him to recall the lesson, you can give him a leash pop and it will trigger the FEELING of heeling, which will trigger his desire to WANT to align with you and heel.

I hope that clarifies. Let me know if that makes sense, or if it doesn’t.

[moose_down_under]

Originally Posted by Sang

By approaching it this way, he starts to feel movement even while lying still. This way of teaching him to settle, allows him to channel his drive into staying put, so it doesn’t shut him down emotionally when he’s settled. Rather, he still feels open and channeled while lying still.

I am also very new to this so I can't put it in words as nicely as Sang did above. But, I can tell you what I have observed with my Mach (he's 8 months now and he been a NDT pup since he was 4months old).
When my husband came home from work, Mach used to get really energised and jump on him, on me, run around the room, nip on hands... you get the idea. After 4 months of "box work" he is now channelling that same drive into "down stay" on his bed every time my husband comes home. Not only that, recently he started giving me a down stay outside when his emotional charge is high. I do not ask him to do this, he is doing it because he wants to. Hopefully one day he will do that when he sees the cat!!!! We'll get there!

Good luck with your training. You have voiced many questions that I had and Mach is displaying similar behaviours to your dogs, so I'm looking forward to reading the answers to your posts.

[Indy]

I will say that when I was at Kevin's with my dog Nelly, he did use leash pops with a prong collar in ways that I hadn't seen before with NDT. Specifically, he gave Nelly several decently hard pops before going into the chicken yard -- I believe the reasoning was to bring her stress up to the surface which made sense (so if she was going to panic, it would happen readily instead of slowly boiling up). He also instructed me to give Nelly a hard correction followed by going into a "down" when she was running after a squirrel or dog, and then having her chase me.. which is a more typical correct-and-redirect thing. I don't feel comfortable using those techniques myself, so I apply "corrections" the way that Sang and Neil described.

[joframe]

Thanks Sang, Moose Down Under and Indy, I am getting the box idea - wouldn't have got it if you hadn't explained it and given your examples - brilliant - thankyou

Regarding the heelwork I am just after a bit more clarification. Are you saying that the pop on the lead - I use a simple rope choke collar - should be administered while they are in heel and looking at you? and how do you get a feel for how often to 'pop' while you are walking along and be upbeat about it? so they associate good things with the pop and link it to being in heel.

And thanks Indy for mentioning the impact of your (dis)comfort with the technique being used. I too struggle with that - feeling its harsh - I have been thinking about this. If the emotion you are feeling is the most important aspect to the communication with the dog then I think I need to feel good about the popping or I will confuse the dog - which I think I will have to work on - I have a lot to learn.... but 3 dogs to practice on!

thanks once again

[rudy]

I do a combo for heel work.

Kevin taught us (me and Lou the dog) a very hard Panic Down. Kevin's wife calls it the Sniper Down bcs that's the purpose - you want the dog to drop to his belly ASAP, the same as if someone yelled Sniper! in a public place. Everyone would drop in panic.

The panic down, for us, is for a panic (panic worthy) situation... I've lost Lou's attention and he's in panic attack mode because we have a child chasing us (who lets a kid do that??), or an owner w/ a dog on a extendable leash who won't pull in their dog even when I ask (then yell). When danger lurks, Lou gets a hard correction (I HATE doing it) along with a stern DOWN! The correction helps boost my "voltage" over the volts Lou is getting from the kid/dog.

We practise that sometimes just so we have this skill. I sometimes have to do it a few times to get a instant drop.

When Kevin does it, Lou DROPS - Kevin doesn't even need a physical correction. Actually, if I'm listening to Kevin on youtube and I have it turned up loud, if Kevin says DOWN Lou *still* drops to his belly.

Otherwise, if we're out I use pushing to maintain a heel.

[BrownieNJoyce]

Originally Posted by rudy

When Kevin does it, Lou DROPS - Kevin doesn't even need a physical correction. Actually, if I'm listening to Kevin on youtube and I have it turned up loud, if Kevin says DOWN Lou *still* drops to his belly.

Otherwise, if we're out I use pushing to maintain a heel.

I have worked with both Neil and Kevin. It is quite amazing how their clarity shows up in the dogs behavior even without any words. So sad that another guy has been coined the dog whisperer. Wow I can't even remember his name right now. A middle-ager moment I guess.

[Charles&theZmonster]

Sorry to revive an older thread but I am in a similar place in terms of having taken Neil's online course, watched a bunch of Quantum Canine and now read NDT. It would be hugely helpful to have a resource which "updates" Kevin's book so we can see which techniques have evolved into what and which are still being used. For instance:
It seems pretty clear to me that the ball being the prey object has been superceeded by the push excercise. Not to say that it doesn't have a place but as Kevin put it the ball is mousing the push is moosing.

Is the sit/down/stay now solely boxwork? I'd imagine it has to transition away from the box and from food at somepoint. Can I transition from the box to the book once we have gotten the box excercises down? Or is this more of a toolbox situation where the tools are to be deployed as needed?

Kevin seems to always have a very logical/orderly progression to training so I don't want to be willy-nilly about jumping around between techniques.

Thanks all

Josh

[Charles&theZmonster]

Just found this post which helped solidify things a bit:

Making contact and shocks

Josh

[Sang]

Cool, glad you found that link Josh. Definitely a good place to start.

Yeah, things have developed a bit since Kevin wrote Natural Dog Training.

In terms of the box training vs the book, can you elaborate? It's been a while since I read the book, and can't remember it well enough to be able to distinguish between how Kevin talked about it in the book vs how he talks about it now.